I guess I'm not sure how explosive the Venezuelans were. The front six were capable certainly; especially Jones and Larentowicz. However, as an all round effort the defense was great. I did play defense/defensive midfield for years.
How do you come to that conclusion? MLS is where Landon Donovan developed into a world class winger, and guys like Cameron, Wondolowski, Feilhaber and a few others out there last night didn't exactly stagnate in the league. And to keep it in the realm of the current discussion, waiting til age 24 to move to Europe didn't hurt Holden (or Dempsey, for that matter). Meanwhile guys like Eddie Johnson, Freddy Adu, Alejandro Bedoya, Rico Clark, Jozy Altidore and literally dozens of others have moved to Europe and fallen well short of delivering on their promise. In the words of Thierry Henry: “I don’t know why you guys have” — the former Arsenal and French star has to pause to find the correct word in English — “such a complex about your football. “You guys have new stadiums. You have good players here. You have big crowds at games. Obviously, we want it to grow — that’s why we’re all here. But you should be happy about it.”
1. Donovan is not world class 2. Shea isn't the type to take the reigns by himself. I think he needs some extra motivation. Whether from Klinsmann or having to fight for a spot in Europe. I can guarantee he will be less effective this season. I hope if the offer is right he moves in the summer. He needs to develop a killer instinct. Stop back passing. You are playing a very very bad Venezuela side. You clearly can take advantage of this. But besides his crosses he didn't go at his man. You have to go in with a mentality that I'm better than this guy, I can beat him off dribble, THEN DO IT. He needs a push so he can keep rising and keep getting better.
I agree about Shea, potential only keeps people interested for so long. He really has had a lot of 'meh' matches. I'll be damned if he is not the most frustrating player to watch, because those flashes of creativity are exciting. I really expected Shea to play head and shoulders above the rest of his teammates, but he disappointed. Reasonable improvement should be expected of players with high levels of talent and for whatever reason, Shea's current club situation/MNT caps are not bringing notable improvement.
Come to think of it, the defensive effort under JK has been relatively solid since the beginning. Maybe at some point we can slowly introduce attacking fullbacks, but we really need consistent clean sheets first. Just my opinion.
The reason I'm more optimistic he'll recover is unlike the first surgery, I understand his follow-up procedure and rehab are being managed by Dr. Bert Mendelbaum, one of the best in the business. As recently as last week he's said his recovery is on-track. Knees are always scary, but I haven't heard the D-word or heard reference to microfracture surgery. Either of those would ring the alarm bells. So knock on wood. I think we can all agree an in-form and healthy Holden would be great news for the team.
Thoughts Backline appeared to be solid but were rarely tested all night. Feilhaber was good and JJ was very good minus a few mistakes. Still confused why Brek and Zusi kept switching sides. I guess playing out of position = being creative? I found myself cheering hard for Wondo to get a goal. He so deserves one. I think JK found a role for Clark... 96 minute sub.
See, I'm not burdened by a statement like Holden "couldn't hold a candle" to Jones. I said they're both good players who at their best belong on the US Team. So I don't need hypothetical acrobatics to make my case. I can just point to what actually happened. Holden was named player of the year by his club. He led them to 7th place before Evans did his knee. He led them to the FA Cup semis. He was included by a number of publications in the EPL Player of the year discussion. You are on a virtual island if you really believe Jones was playing at a higher level in the same time period. If Holden returns to last season's form, he's on the US Team. At his best, Jones was rated by Kicker as the 4th best midfielder in the Bundesliga. He was showing signs of returning to an elite level before he went bonkers. Hopefully the public scorn forces him to look in the mirror and put that type of behavior behind him. And if he does, and if he maintains the form he's shown this year, he belongs too. I fail to see how that means Holden can't "hold a candle" to Jones.
I rewatched the second half this afternoon. My observations: 1. Parkhurst had an excellent game. His distribution was outstanding, and he was surprisingly good in the air. On second viewing, I thought he outplayed Cameron. 2. Shea had a nightmare of a second half. His first touch let him down several times, his passing was sloppy, and he couldn't beat anyone on the dribble. He is an outstanding crosser of the ball in MLS, but was only able to get off one cross all half. I'm sure people will disagree with me, but go back and watch the second half yourself. He lost the ball more than half the times he touched it. 3. Zusi isn't ready for this level yet. I'm looking forward to Panama, where the backline should get a better test. Cameron, Parkhurst, and Feilhaber are the non-regulars who I'd think about giving a shot vs Italy at this point. Also, there is definitely room on this team for someone who can beat defenders on the dribble. We are going to face teams that bunker in qualifying, and we'll need someone to break them down. I am increasingly doubtful that Shea has the ability to do this. There is a real opportunity for a young guy like Gyau, Gatt, Wood, Corona or even Adu to play a big part in qualifying in my opinion.
OK, I'll take it a step back, from an assumption I've been debating under that I thought was understood, but perhaps is not. Bolton is a provincial EPL club. Comparable in their respective spectrum (success, finances, etc.) to say, a club like Hannover. They make a run in the league cup every few years, and, in a good decade, will make it to Europe once or twice, but will usually lose early in the competition. Schalke is a top 5 Bundesliga club, comparable in their respective spectrum (success, finances, etc.) to say, a club like Arsenal. They will win their league once or twice a decade, and are dissappointed if they don't make a deep run in the European competitions. Is it really that hard to understand that Jones has performed at a bigger club for a longer period of time than Holden?
Really don't understand how we keep hearing arguments that value a player based on what club or league they play in. Dempsey just got a hat trick playing for Fulham, would his accomplishment have been greater if he was playing for say Chelsea.? Best player for the U.S. last night was Jones, and the reason he was our best player last night and that had more to do with his performance than the fact that he plays for a top German club.
This part is true, but if it leads you to saying Holden can't hold a candle to Jones as a player, that's a leap of logic. Usually the whole pedigree thing is invoked when a player is playing, in, say, Belgium, or MLS, and the length of time thing when discussing, say, Donovan's first loan spell at Everton. But Holden showed for a good length of time against a high level of competition that he deserves to be in the discussion about our best CM, period. Those who talk about overrating him or his stock going up the longer he's out weren't paying enough attention to his PL play. Holden is a neater player than Jones, both defensively and offensively. Jones is sloppier and more reckless, both defensively and offensively. I'd take Holden except when I want Jones' physicality. They might complement each other very well played together though.
My thought is that with Jones' pedigree, he should boss the MF in a game at the B- team level. Nice to see, but let's see it vs Italy.....
Nope. Of course, it shouldn't be that hard to understand that at similar points in their careers, the two were playing at a comparable level of club relative to their respective leagues (Bolton and Eintracht). And I don't believe Holden's performances should be dismissed because he hasn't been at it as long. What I would dismiss is the idea Holden can't hold a candle to Jones. We shouldn't have to rip one player to recognize the value in another. That's all I'm saying.
Indeed. (Of course, sometimes with our team it feels like you can never take anything positive for granted.) I don't think that was a bad move by Klinsi, bringing him in for his own fitness and game mindset while suspended to provide some veteran bossing to a young, inexprienced team. Win/win, really. As to Jones's standing relative the rest of the A team midfield competition, this game doesn't settle anything.
It's gonna be OK. We're just debating. If you jump in mid-stream, you may not follow the tangent. Dempsey is a bad, bad man.
I agree about the driving competitive will rubbing off. One positive I take from this game is that it was a game where not much was "working" in the final third, it could've easily been another source of team frustration, but the competitive persistence paid off. They kept going for it all the way through, and a large part of that seemed like Jones. He and the team were not content to just walk off the field with a draw. I like that.
Fair enough. I didn't think I was ripping Holden (I called him a "revelation"). Was just talking about their respective professional careers, where Jones has a good six-or-so-year head start. Cheers.
It feels like Fox News around here. That's not what I was saying. At all. The "candle" quote is two pages back. Check it out. I wasn't talking about Holden and Jones as players, only about their respective professional careers, where Jones has a several year advantage at a higher level. Having said that, if you really want to cherry-pick, I would choose a healthy and in form Jones over a healthy and in form Holden in a one-off, "if I lose, they take my house" kind of game. But that's just like, my opinion, man.