Post-match: USA vs. T&T - June 22, 2019 - Gold Cup

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    That's my concern about these games. I think they prove you belong in the pool -- that you can perform well in an international game -- but they are being blown into, oh, proof he should start. I think if people note how the first 45 of guyana and the first 60 of trinidad went, it's not some first whistle juggernaut.

    But, as I said yesterday, then people need to accept previously obvious maxims like Camp Cupcake fools you, Gold Cup group stage fools you, or start the guy who gets 10 on Cuba. A little longer term of a concern, more focus on selecting for Mexico and less on "proving" a lineup in a weak game, that can't handle Mexico, and then we are so messed in the head we can't talk ourselves out of the bad idea. Which is basically second rate soccer team problems. You wanna be first rate, eyes on the prize.

    You'd think people would get that when it's win 3, then tie 1 and lose 2, then win 2, that we are a little inconsistent and not there yet. Apparently Trinidad revenge is the definition of "there."
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    because the 3rd goal is pulisic storming up a wing
     
  3. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Absolutely! This pairing and even with all the other problems, we're probably playing and losing a lot at the 2018 WC. I personally thought the pairing of Besler-Opara with Cameron at the 6 would have formed our best defensive triangle and then, if we must play Bradley, he should have been the 8. Had we done this and actually integrated McKennie, Adams and a few others as Bruce claimed he would have between qualifying and the WC, we probably put up a decent fight and soccer is in a very different place right now.
     
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  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    see my "oasis in a desert" metaphor.

    people have no sense of context. "but we play SAm teams and sometimes win." yeah, and if you look at the Copa America results, group a, the teams that beat our butt the last 2 years are top 2, the team we tied is 3rd. group b the 2 teams that beat us are the top 2, the team we beat is 3rd. group c the team we tied is 1st and the team we barely beat would be out dead last.

    at least part of the issue is sustaining the results from the creampuff games to the serious matches, as well as not confusing the two. we are rarely getting serious match results but nonetheless each time we win a game or two creampuff style we annoint that lineup the future even if it is put to the sword next serious game.

    how about instead of annointing whole lineups in creampuff games, we instead identify interesting impact players, but restrain ourselves that hmmm the real question is when i amp it up how do you show. we have already gone through this cycle on Robinson and some other fool's gold so why do we just turn around and repeat it?

    and you're like, but boyd showed well. yeah, but we have barely tried anyone else, and morris gets no credit for what he does, and weah isn't even there. zardes vs jozy or sargent. arriola vs pulisic. on and on. the problem is we're trying to identify one player per spot and then verify our confirmation bias, as opposed to identify several and then see which ones from them handle the bigger games. it's subtle but it's a difference in terms of how seriously you take an individual game -- particularly with a weak opponent -- and whether you give more players the same opportunity to make as good or better an impression. we rapidly get overexcited and tunnel vision the pool.

    we're supposed to be a good team but we behave like a mediocre one that finds a player or two who look good one night and shuts up the store on anyone else.
     
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  5. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I also wondered why we didn't play the KC defense with Opara, Besler and Melia. If there was any slight gap in talent the familiarity should have helped a bunch.
     
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  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    put differently, these games should be "23" games. sort out the correct 23 from them. then figure out which ones are the "XI." we're jumping past the 23 to the XI and so the bench kind of sucks and is mischosen, and we have a tendency to make big gaffes on who should start, which for a team in our rebuilding situation should be a longer term sorting job based on more than 2 games against modest caribbean opposition.

    i didn't like the xerox lineup for not resting people and taking trinidad too serious. and i don't like the xerox lineup for the intellectual arrogance it sends. it screams i have this figured out when in reasonable soccer circles more than half the XI is debatable. i mean, think about that. a bunch of the players are debatable starters and we didn't turn over a one and give their colleague a chance to show better.

    and if we do give them a chance it's in the Jamaica Game with a literal C team. and then we hold against Sargent the way he looks trying to get on the end of Roldan and Mihailovic crosses. you know, our future wingers for sure.

    to me we haven't moved 5 feet from bruce's arrogant lineups. bruce was just as sure. bruce didn't need a fresh set of players for couva. bruce knew who we could rely on.

    ok, if that's the 'tude, i want the trophy at the end. if you give us tude and don't bring back qualification or the trophy then you weren't as bright as you thought.
     
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  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I didn't say Miazga had a bad game. I said his judgement error led to that goal. The highlight you posted doesn't show where he started, but he was much deeper, and more a safety valve, along the other player that was back with him.

    He didn't need to attack the header that far upfield -- what is Rondon going to do there? Instead, he attacked, covering more ground than in the replay (he's already moving when it starts), missing the header and most importantly, leaving a massive hole in behind him.

    You have no need to go for that header, but you can't go for it and not get it.

    It's a clear error by Miazga. I don't think he had a terrible game, but he is the primary person at fault for that goal.
     
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  8. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When he entered the game, my mom said "Jesus, he's like a brick!"
     
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  9. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah, you can say he's slow..but fat is wild. He is in great great shape.
     
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  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He wasnt much deeper. Rondon checked and he took a step and jumped. You dont leave the other teams best player to guard space. He never had a chance of winning that header but going with him and putting pressure on the attacker is exactly what a defender is supposed to do. If he doesnt go with him Rondon can turn with that ball.

    We were playing with two CBs. Usually if one has to step, the other drops in. Long is who should have been with him but he was wide and deep before he completely loses his man. The position of Long's mark is in a less dangerous spot than from where Rondon heads the ball. Long could have stepped so his man was offside or not let him get inside of him. He did neither. This goal is all on Long.
     
  11. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal

    This isn't to argue this one way or another but it made me think a bit. Other than injury, do the club teams really care about how the national teams play their players? It's pretty common for players to fill different roles for their NT than for their club teams. Do you think it is something that club teams, in general, don't like? If so, what do you think their reasoning would be?

    The only thing that I can really think of would be market value and I don't really see that as a negative for the club:
    Player looks bad at the new role and no loss...he's playing out of position.
    Player looks good in the new role and he gains value because he is more versatile and opens up possibilities tactically and positionally for the prospective buyer.

     
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  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Here are all his touches. Help us understand what you saw in the stands that those of watching on tv missed. Sure he gave the ball away a couple of times, but he looked to have a positive impact on the game over all.

     
  13. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like all upside as you say.
     
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  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i am curious how many plays you see any advantage actually being taken of this. any goals resulting.

    all i see is he lights up when he finally gets on the wing.

    the midfield actually tends to get outplayed by about everyone. how many mids are we all talking about. it's forwards or backs. or maybe a particular bradley pass. or pulisic overlapping to where he belongs.
     
  15. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only thing that I get out of that video is that I miss Demps.
     
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    to reframe my pool v 23 v 11 metaphor -- dating. we fall in love at first sight, go exclusive after the first date, and practically want to marry the girl right away. how about we date enough women we know what we like and why we like it, and make sure we are making our best choice. worse, we fall so hard and so stubbornly it's like impossible to talk sense to us. if zardes sucks against mexico we will make excuses based on the less important games, and basically set up a repeat. when brooks or yedlin get healthy we will have the same dumb discussions again. we are sufficiently impetuous and willful performance doesn't soak in like it should.
     
  17. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No doubt but the issue with Jozy is he doesn’t use his size well. His hold up is sub par for a dude with his size. He needs to drop weight so he’s more mobile.
     
  18. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's been a good hold-up guy for years now. I think you are remembering the younger Jozy.

    He plays as a legit 9 for TFC.
     
  19. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hold up in the MLS isn’t the same as hold up play against better sides in national team games. His hold up play sub par for someone his side.
     
  20. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    Your mom is an astute observer of attacking movement in the final third. If I were only given five letters to describe how Jozy played on the night, "brick" might just be perfect.
     
  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    "the pitcher had a great game except for that one fat pitch he threw that got tagged for a 3 run homer. and then we lost 3-2."

    sorry but to me defenders are the flip side of forwards. goal scoring can cover up some ills. goal allowing besmirches many minutes of otherwise good play.

    miazga also gets spun around on the ireland winner last year. i am curious how this current bunch holds up to sterner tests but there needs to be more attention paid to which ones pitch shutouts and which ones cost goals. both anecdotally and as some sort of GAA or +/- metric.
     
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  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    jozy had a nice flick within minutes of coming in and was involved in a goal. that zardes doesn't do.

    any discussion of his feet needs to also talk about sargent and zardes and the rest. if jozy has stone feet so does zardes. honest resolution of that concern would point you to sargent or the like.

    i also think as i said earlier that the real debate right now shouldn't be the arbitrary star vs cut but rather which ones are 23 material. we have 23 opportunities to hold some of these competing thoughts in our heads at the same time. and several games where each can be given their particular chance. or we can assume our conclusion and start them the whole group round, in which case the knockouts are the final exam but you have prepared for only one test.

    bluntly i am not sure why we can't have sargent and others central, and jozy and zardes and weah wide, paired with pulisic other side.

    when you start to pit two good players against each other and then sit one hmmmm maybe that is when you move someone. we instead seem to engage in the oddity of moving the better player to suit the worse one. the idea is maximize good guys on the field in the positions where they shine. isn't it?
     
  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mexico is the only team putting out a better than MLS defense. He scored in every round of CCL knockouts against Mexican clubs... As I said, your information may be dated.
     
  24. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    Farewell Sweet Prince
    Jan 9, 2004
    Gentrification's Apex.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    lol no.

    NT ball is more an annoyance for clubs most of the time anyway, especially if your players are playing anywhere that isn't Europe. Just think how pleased any club with African internationals feels about their players running around in the mid-summer Egyptian sun right now.
     
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  25. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jamaica didn't make the Hex last time, Trinidad did. Jamaica managed to beat Haiti 1-0 away, and tie Costa Rica at home before finishing behind Haiti with 4 points.

    It's a mischaracterization to say that Trinidad is analogous to Barbados or Cuba. They're better than that, analogous to Jamaica of the 2014 Hex.

    I agree that different marginal sides rise and fall (we're watching Honduras tumble as we speak). I do think Trinidad is a marginal side. I don't think they are a never-were minnow like Cuba, Barbados, or the half-dozen or so Caribbean teams that you never see regularly, like Antigua and Barduda.
     
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