Post-match: USA vs Paraguay March 27th, 2018

Moore was awful. The post I repped was a long one with ratings for each player.

Without going into back and forth, let me say I was unacquainted with Delgado before that game and Bshredder has a good explanation in that same thread

"in the end, what hurt as that Zelalem was brought into the team too late (FIFA's fault on this). The chemistry between Zelalem and Hyndman just wasn't what it could be. Then when you think about Canouse going down, Delgado had to inherit a huge role on the team. So working in Zelalem and Delgado into the first choice starting XI just 10 days or so ahead of the WC was exceptionally difficult."

Here is Jeff Adams post #148

Big props to Tab Ramos for sending Acosta to the bench and playing Requejo at left back and Delgado at dmd.

b.t.w. Canouse is still a great dmid. He is now at DC and injured so Durkin is playing but I'd love to see him break in Durkin as a partner when he comes back.

And because I'm in a good mood, let me say I hope Acosta goes to Levante and plays with Shaquelle Moore.​

 

I’m not sure why you insinuated I had lied. Like is said before I could/should have stated it was an opinion, but it was a wide held opinion.

It has become clear that Sciarretta writes to protect his job and US coaches not named Klinsmann. It was tough situation, but Delgado didn’t come close to rising to the occasion. You took a petty shot at Hyndman and Zelalem to deflect blame for his defense. What is your explanation for his considerable number of giveaways? I would think with those guys in front of him, maintaining possession and completeling simple Hyndman was an outlet for the whole team throughout the tournament. In my opinion and I believe many others, Delgado was crap on both sides of the ball. He was overwhelmed by the speed and physicality of the game.

It was a very poor decision at the time to leave Delgado in terms of getting results, but looks to be paying off now. For that, Ramos deserves credit.

Canouse isn’t a great dmid. He is an average dmid. I liked his game in u20 WCQ, but there were also some questions about being able to cover enough ground to make it at the next level. His injury was a big loss and hurt us throughout the tournament. His career has had fits and starts. He has a lot of work to do and is somebody we should be looking at once he gets healthy and fit.

 

I hope I didn't give the impression that I picked Delgado out as the next great dmid after looking at the u20 game. My point was simply that the great BS hope Acosta was replaced with Delgado who has surpassed Acosta across the board. So why the hate for Delgado and the constant hype for Acosta who cant get a sniff in Europe. I started hyping Delgado in general with his increased presence on the Reds. That doesn't change the fact that he kept a clean sheet at the U20's against Serbia who went on to win the tournament. I think he would be challenged physically playing a dedicated 6 but that doesnt mean I don't think he is 10x better than Acosta.

It wont matter what Delgado does as long as he makes 200k and various posters see their job as keeping his salary down so MLS has more money to pay big "stars". That's where the lying comes in. And the damage done is failure to qualify for Russia. The devil collects his debts.

 

I don't generally like to get into these types of discussions but Delgado was very clearly among the worst players at the U-20 WC.

Having said that, he looked a totally different player vs. Paraguay and was among the best on the field.

 

"worst" - he kept a clean sheet - for 120 minutes. His cmids were Hyndman and Zelalem. They said Delgado had a hard time with distro. Distributing to Zelalem was suicide. My grandma could push him off the ball, not to mention the tigers on the serb side. You saw what I did there.

Neither Hyndman nor Zelalem play defense yet we kept a clean sheet thru 120.

Delgado stepped up to take his penalty in the shoot out and made it. b.t.w., I think Tab had tried Delgado at fullback before this iirc

Are we really saying that our "6" was to blame for not scoring a single goal when we played two offensive cmids who were defensively challenged and were there to score goals? The fact is, Zelalem and Hyndman were crap, if we want to judge objectively according to the result.

 

Delgado was calling for help for 3 or 4 matches, Ramos gave him none. That team could've done better if Ramos had an idea about how to construct a CM. Instead, we heard all tournament how Zelalem and Hyndman were doing so great (they created nothing except the NZ game), even though they kept losing the ball and then would stand at midfield waiting for their teammates to win it back outmanned.

 

its ironic that people totally underestimate/ignore players despite the fact they've clearly improved in the years following a bad performance while at the same time the same people will magically imagine other people have improved greatly despite all the evidence saying otherwise.

 

Not that we had one of the best CB pairings in the entire tournament or anything.

 

Again.....

I don't like denigrating youth players, to prop up another player or for any other reason, but my impression of Delgado throughout the tournament (as opposed to the one match you keep citing) was that he was slightly better than Shaq Moore. Obviously, you have a different take and that's fine.

 

i don’t get the purpose of trying to make up some story about how well Delgado played in a tournament almost 3 years ago. He didn’t, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that he has made a lot of progress.

I have never heard of a defensive midfielder getting credit for a clean sheet. Accounts of Delgado in that game were as I recalled. You again take unnecessary and generic shots at EH and GZ, but multiple posters mention Delgado struggling to the point that Hyndman needed to drop deeper, limiting his ability to go forward. Calling players crap based on a scoresheet and the fact the team didn’t score isn’t really analysis. My recollection was that Delgados PK was a very weak goal... but I wouldn’t rate a players game on a PK.

Those who watched this tournament closely and participated in the youth threads at the time, may recall how emotional and erratic this poster was. He, like you, had an irrational response to EH and GZ all tournament. Even though he was attempting to claim how poor they were, he still rated Delgado the worst player of that game.

Here is the comment I referenced above above Delgado’s play impacting Hyndman’s...

Delgado - 4 - He seemed to be the focal point of one of Serbia's gameplans, as they repeatedly took advantage of his lack of positional discipline and knocked second balls into the space where he'd vacate trying to chase. He lost several key duels and looked shaky on the ball - in the second half Emo Hyndman had to drop deep to stop the bleeding which more or less crippled the attack.

I also realized how much worse Delgado is with the ball than his teammates for the first time (I hadn't been watching as closely before and didn't realize the severity of his ineptitude).
↑
Not sure why Delgado is getting so much abuse here.
IMO a lot of poor touches and passes.

 

I don’t know what this has to do with me. I’ve never agreed with MLS pay policies and I have been thinking for a while that MLS has been causing more harm than good for our most talented players.

 

Sorry to interrupt this debate and go off topic but I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm doing a prediction contest for the upcoming World Cup. It basically consists of predicting the results of each match, from group play all the way to the final. Different points will be awarded based on whether you predicted the outcome (who won or was it a tie?) or the exact result (including penalties after extra-time). Depending on how much interest there is, I might do a second one starting from the Knockout Stages. Anyway, let me know if anyone is interested and please feel free to tell others (the more the better).

 

are you saying that posters on this board impact a players salary in mls?

this is some alex jones/deep state russian fake news type bs

 

Lol! You must not have read the last 10 pages.

 

He seems like a smart guy. He found an active thread with a bunch of people engaged in idiocy and thought “let’s see if they want to gamble”. Based on my contribution to the last 10 pages, I’d be ok donating.

 

Hahaha. Actually, there's no cost to it. It's more of a friendly wager and something to check while watching the world cup this summer.

 

I am in. What is the link?

 

Sure, people make sweeping long-term judgments based on the performances of youth players at high profile youth tournaments or from limited first team minutes.

Young players are erratic, meaning their performances can vary greatly. These tournaments or cameos occur over one month, meaning they represent a small sample size of a player's career. The next major thing to take into account is that performance ≠ talent; team context, matchup, injury/fitness status, and form all matter. A major bias is also basing valuations on the prestige of the team the player is paid by, the quality of the tactical/teaching environment is more important and plays out over time.

Basically I advocate for something more like value investing research and analysis when evaluating players. Look at the intrinsic qualities of a player (TIPS) and evaluate that collection of abilities as a whole, while keeping in mind what can be improved and the importance of the harder to see (in one game) psychological makeup of the player.

A young player's performance, which is easier for the average observer to grasp, is one data point, among many, and needs to be weighted as such.

 

His performances were among the worst.

Which is interesting because he is literally the same person. His performance was different. After gaining experience he has learned how to apply his intrinsic qualities and he was allowed to play in a more familiar/suitable role (8 vs 6) so he performed better.

This is the type of evaluation error I'm talking about. Some people see a performance and think that means intrinsic quality, others decide on a player's intrinsic quality and that clouds their evaluations of that player's performances.

 

Thanks. Then I’m assuming you weren’t referring to me but a component of the discussion I was in.

Players constantly change and therefore assessments should be updated based dated based on that information. I usually try create a band that is retry wide for young players bound by my view on their floors and ceiling and then where they are likely to fall in that range assuming career stays on track (most subjective as based on intangibles and mental components that I have very little info on).

Applying to Hyndman and Delgado...

I still have high hopes for EH but his ceiling is lower as his progress is lower than it could have been. My expectation is slightly lower for similar reasons and still hasn’t convinced me in a couple areas I’ve thought he’s needed to improve, but he has generally been a consistent performer with a good head on his shoulders.

I didn’t give MD much thought until last season. My projected ceiling is much higher than I would have put it if I contemplated it before. My expected level is slightly higher as I still think there are challenges to overcome and don’t think MLS is a good environment for players at his stage in his career. It would be great if he made a move abroad or began to create a trend of young Americans who improve year after year a grow into bigger and bigger roles.

One last comment. While very unscientific, I’ve tried to make the mental component a bigger part of my player “projections”. It has been the most obvious part after the fact for prospects who end up near their floors (Adu, Agudelo, Shea, etc) and the guys who have or are succeeding (Dempsey, Pulisic, McKennie, etc). It is based on little actual info and gut (so flawed), but it is a reason I rate Hyndman, Parks, Adams, Steffen, etc higher than I would otherwise.

 

I was so bored with the Fri nite game I was going to watch, I dug up the 2105 U20 game against Serbia and rewatched from minute 24 til the end of et. Didn't see the shootout. I was surprised by how similar players were to what they are today. As a sidenote, Requejo had a monster game so I'm not sure what happened to his career. He was better than Acosta at lb throughout so why did Tab play Acosta? Beats me. The basic character of the players seems to stay the same but some get better and others don't.

Go to 1:02 of the hilites - on the broadcast they said that was USA's best chance for a score. It happened around 90+1 of the game. It struck me because it was Delgado(15)-Requejo(3)-Rubin(9) and ressembled the goal @America last week Delgado-Gio-Ricketts-Osorio

 

The problem isn’t the evaluation as most of us have little else to go on. The problem is not being able to change the evaluation when additional performances warrant it.

I think I’m the one who brought up Delgados performance almost 3 years ago. I think was in the context of how much improvement he would have needed to make to move past Hyndman. I personally don’t think he is better than EH at this point, but don’t really know and don’t know how anyone knows. The best way to solve that problem is to have a coach who will call them into camps and evaluate them and then continue to do the same over time.

 

So CONEMBOL is supporting our bid now.

 

My jumping off point were the comments about Delgado's performances with the U20s you quoted and as far as these types of evaluation errors go I'm sure you can improve.

Players' performances often vary. Truly great players are those who perform at a high level consistently. People mistake these variations for similarly drastic swings in a player's intrinsic abilities. That is an incorrect inference and because it underpins other decisions it creates other errors. Viewing things within a probabilistic band is useful and I encourage others to adopt that and embrace varying degrees of uncertainty.

With Hyndman I see it differently. I don't think his ceiling is lower, I think the probability he reaches it has diminished.

 

OK you 2015 U20 nerds guess who's playing for Toronto against Colorado in 40 minutes: Big Ben Spencer.

It was never clear to me if he was injured for finals (I believe he was) or if Tab dropped him for Zelalem. We definitely missed his hold up against Serbs. Tab made the mistake of thinking BJ iv could fill the role. BJ got creamed early in the game against Serbia and had to come out.