Post-match: USA vs Mexico Gold Cup final 7/7/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by tomásbernal, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Socialist like 1930's Germany? Fascist governments, like ours, try to control the media too. Back to soccer.
     
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  2. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    This is the point clearly missed by the Bradley apologists. Our backline is very pedestrian and typically a work in progress and we've taken a step back in goal too. The DM has to be able to defend players of Mexico's ability and much higher.
    Blaming CP's role and ignoring the elephant in the room is all too MLS fandom.
     
  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    This is always funny. If the bottom of the B1 is equal to below MLS, that must make LigaMX near the top of Bundesliga.
     
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  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #679 DHC1, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    To further the point, Fortuna is ranked by 538 as the 104th best club (and is the place where our starting goalie is heading to), while TFC is ranked 332nd and dropping. FYI, the Galaxy is ranked 296th and the Crew is ranked 410th.

    The gap between the 62.3 points that are awarded to Fortuna and the 39.9 points for TFC is 22.4 points. If one simply subtracts that from TFC (assuming an equal gap below), one gets 17.5 points or roughly equal to El Paso or Charlotte in USL. I don't think that we're calling for the best player on those teams to over-ride Bradley.....Similarly, if one were to add the 22.4 point to Fortuna, one would get 84.7 points or Real Madrid. I'm not going to get too numbers oriented as I doubt that they're made for exactitude but the gaps between the levels cannot be excused away with similitudes that MLS is pretty close to B1. It's not, it's right on top of B2 and neither are close to B1.

    The thought that Bradley is equal to Morales is pretty similar to the top third USL midfielder is equal to Bradley.....Yikes.
     
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  5. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    Mar 17, 2007
    Colorado (formerly northern Virginia)
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    socialist or fascist (whichever way you like it) in that there is no transparency into the stupid decisions that have been made and the media is not (yet) questioning it.
     
  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I've been on vacation with the family this week, so it took me a while to get here. The post-game thread is somewhat predictable -- early on there's high drama -- WE'RE NEVER GOING TO WIN EVER! and then it devolves into the same conversations.

    Let me inject some level of positivity, if that's not against the rules:
    • From reading here, you'd think the team was dominated. They weren't. Yes, there were stretches where we ceded too much possession, but the US had the best scoring chances by far. The US had a higher expected goals. How much different is this conversation if Jozy and Pulisic finish those early chances? If the later header is not headed off the line?
    • The answer is "a lot." Now, woulds and shoulds don't win games, but rather than seeing a massive amount of systematic issues, I see a young and developing team just better conversion away from winning that game, despite real issues.
    • Jozy saved us and killed us. Lost in much of the analysis of this game was that Jozy only had about 30-40 minutes in him. He was great -- and the ripple effect on the team was huge -- and then when he started to lose steam, the team struggled more. It's not a coincidence.
    • Jozy and Christian need to finish their chances. Maybe some day we will dominate a quality team like Mexico start to finish, but most likely, we need to convert our good chances. Jozy missed that obvious one, but CP also missed one early he needs to convert ... and he failed to pass on another great opportunity late.
    • CP will do that enough, I have no doubt. But Jozy worries me -- he's rarely healthy, couldn't play 45 minutes this game and the drop off is stunning unless Sargent pans out. Please, Josh.
    • I still see a ton that I liked from this team over the course of the tourney. For a lot of people, it seems like they were just waiting for a loss -- any loss. But many of those same people said we wouldn't make it out of the group, or beat Jamaica, etc. To lose, but on the the few inches of swing between a Dos Santos shot that hit crossbar and several better US chances that missed by inches -- I'm not happy, but I can't pronounce some giant failure here.
    • There's points of concern around the roster, but the only one that seems like there's a real gap in the pool is LB. Which is a real concern. We need someone to step up. I know quite a few people here panic about squad selection, but I think we need to see what plays out at positions like CM, Striker, and winger. We have a lot of young talent coming.
    • Lastly, I do think people should be more even in their criticism. I see a lot of massive defense of McKennie and Pulisic's play in this game. Neither was great, and McKennie was not good at all. He played a significant role in that goal we gave up (as did Bradley and Miazga and I'm sure a few more people). They are two of our best players -- CP is our best -- and they aren't going to get dropped for it. But they also need to play better if we're going to compete.
    I'm looking forward to seeing a healthier roster, hopefully, the next time around. We aren't currently a deep roster, so injuries hit the US harder than a team like Mexico. Adams will change things. And I think so will Weah, Sargent and Pomykal very soon.
     
  7. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    I am far from an MLS apologist. I try to watch it every year but the level of play is what it is. Even if MB was taken out of the equation, which I would prefer, the midfield will still be under staffed if CP continues his current free roaming role with three attacking players up top.
    Getting rid of MB and continuing this system will provide similar results, in my opinion. Either put CP as a false 9 and add a third CM or put him on the wings and add a third CM.

    With or without MB, third CM please.
     
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  8. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gregg brought players that he didn't trust and was too slow to match Tata.

    Subs in second half after Pizzaro switched sides.

    Lima or Lovitz on at LB for Ream.
    Roldan on for Morris sits deepest and pushes Bradley up field.

    Jozy up top, very little pressing
    Pulisic second striker.
    I would only have subbed Jozy if his tongue was hanging out and he was staring at the bench. There's a difference between tired and too tired to fight.

    Jozy
    CP

    Bradley. Wes

    Roldan
     
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  9. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't see how going thru all these mental gymnastics to come up with a solution which keeps Mikey on, is worth the time or effort.

    Just put Adams at DM and Cannon at RB.

    I don't like Pulisic as the free range 10 in a 3 man midfield. My current preference is:

    ----------------Weah----------------
    -----Pulisic------------------Boyd
    ---------------------Pomykal-------
    ----------McKennie----------------
    ---------------Adams----------Cannon

    Pulisic as an inverted LW with pockets to drift in and out of.

    Weah would stretch the CB's far more than either Jozy or Zardes do, creating even larger pockets for Pulisic to slide into.

    Pomykal fits nicely in a high 8 pocket. I'd love to see his ability to collect, turn and spray balls to the front 3 in this set up.

    McKennie gets to focus on being a box 2 box menace and Adams cleans everything up while dictating the tempo.

    This is a setup which plays each player to their strengths.

    If we want Puli as a 10 try a diamond.

    -----Weah-------Jozy----
    -----------Pulisic----------
    McKennie-------Pomykal
    -----------Adams----------
     
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  10. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    That was kind of the point of the original post, not that MB’s position is the cause of the midfield breakdown but that CP as the free roaming 10 eats up the third mid spot resulting in the midfield pair of two being overrun.

    In other words, this system played with “x” in place of MB still results in a week and overrun/overworked midfield.

    In my opinion, CP in his current role does not generate enough productivity to offset the cascading effects in midfield.
     
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  11. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    They were outnumbered in the MF and without a ball winner on the field.

    This is why a roster needs a true defensive MF.
     
  12. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Cronyism has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism, and is widely found in both.
     
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  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I kinda got stuck daydreaming for a minute or two after the second line informed me that it has been 20 months since Couva.

    Fun fact:
    El Tri won its eighth Gold Cup without many of its most recognizable names. Javier Hernández, Carlos Vela, Héctor Herrera, Hirving Lozano, Diego Lainez, Jesús Corona and Miguel Layún all missed this tournament for one reason or another. Meanwhile, Berhalter’s substitutes Sunday were Cristian Roldan, Gyasi Zardes and Daniel Lovitz.
     
  14. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    You have to read between the lines a little. Brian gives us good feel for the team group psychology and what we may expect to "continue" going forward.

    "McKennie often looked confused or overrun in midfield, while Pulisic missed an early chance and struggled at times to find the ball (even though he was dangerous when he had it).

    None of that erases the work that’s been done, Michael Bradley said.

    “That was there regardless,” he told SI.com. “We all feel good about that. We feel good about the work. We feel good about what is being [built], the environment every day. We feel good about the direction everything’s going. That part has been there, and that part will continue to be there."
     
  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You have done a poor job of conveying a message. I agree that all players should be judged on how they play but the expectations should be based on their experience. 20 yo are there to help the team however they can and mistakes are to be expected while veterans should be leading the team or very consistent player who make very few mistakes.

    Mckennie didnt have his best game. He struggled to get on the ball, connect with teammates and do the absurd amount of defensive work requested. Some have suggested he lost his head a bit, but I am sure happy he stepped to protect a teammate and didnt get himself tossed when physically attacked. Below expectations game for a big prospect. Let's take a little pressure off next game, keep doing the good things and focus improving on the weaknesses.

    Bradley was a weak link and got worse as he tired. Way below expectations for a veteran. Role is too big for him.

    If it would put ratings on them, they would probably both be the same, but Bradley's low score is much more unacceptable. Some fans around here seem to hold youngster to higher standards and are more accepting of mistakes from veterans. I think these rating from Seltzer are absurd.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/07/08/us-player-ratings-who-stood-out-gold-cup-final-loss-mexico

    Michael Bradley (6) — The veteran midfielder barely put a foot wrong in the opening frame. Bradley was passing elegantly to the wings and making big defensive plays in the US area. He became far too easy to cut out after intermission and three major giveaways only helped the visitors continue tilting the field. The Toronto FC ace nearly made up for all of that with a clever late run-and-cross out wide.

    Weston McKennie (3.5) — The night's captain drove play early, mostly by hopping on his horse to break pressure. For the last hour or so, McKennie's oft-noted weaknesses popped up and stayed up. He was unable to get on the ball to have build impact and needed to do more when Mexico started leaning on the US. A tough outing sank to its low when he neglected to track Dos Santos on the winner.
     
  16. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Are you saying the ratings are absurd, not the description? I feel like the description of play, as a thumbnail sketch, is adequate.
     
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  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    IMO overall McKennie was worse than Bradley. I don't think he's a CM, the more I watch of him, the more he looks like an AM to me. The through-passing he showed in the Jamaica game is the sort of stuff you want in the guy right behind the forwards.

    If Egg returns to sanity and gives Adams the DM role, we'd be in need of a #8 --preferably not the rapidly aging Mike.
     
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  18. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some good posts lately: standout is @USA-Zebuel for the excellent tactical analysis on WHY Berhalter ever wanted Adams in the RB slot and how that allows Pulisic freedom to roam.

    As I've already stated, Bradley needs to go now so that new, younger guys can take over. I definitely see Adams at the 6, Mckennie at the 8 and Pulisic at the 10, assuming we can settle on a decent left back not named Ream. Perhaps Lima gets a shot out there so that Cannon (or Yedlin if you wish) can stay on the right. Solid outside backs on both sides who have the capability to get up the field as well as defend will allow for a winger with more skill and less Arriola-type workrate. I think that opens up possibilities that match our pool's skillset (thinking of you, Weah). Alternatively, if Bradley or Trapp must be on the field, then Adams needs to be next to them, with McKennie as the 8 and Pulisic out to the wing. Any way you cut it, I think Adams is the really decisive piece that will allow formational flexibility. Of course, if he's injured then...maybe Roldan at the 6 (which Berhalter seemingly doesn't like) so McKennie can stay at the 8. I really think McKennie is an 8, solidly. Maybe he develops the game for the 6, but I think his best attributes support an 8 role, and his worst detriments detract from the 6.
     
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  19. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Agree that McKennie looks best on attack. His passing is as good as we've got other than our all world back passers. Supporting the lion so he can float in space is not something he's good at or understands.
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have essentially highlighted GB creating a naively designed scheme compounded by poor personnel selections.

    If we are going to play a true attacking 4-3-3 with 3 high forwards and a free roaming AM then we need to have the other 2 CMs be very high work rate box-to-box ball winners. You also need both FBs to be pacy, high work rate, top notch 1 v 1 defenders to fill in the holes created by having true forwards high up the pitch.

    You certainly can't have MB<<60 as one of the CMs, Adams and McKennie would work. You also can't have Ream be one of the FBs for obvious reasons. You certainly can't think about playing a gimmick RB sliding into CM which leaves an even bigger hole on one side of the pitch.

    This is not EA Sports FIFA where such naive schemes may work!
     
  21. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    You often dive into the deeper takes on why a system/player is failing or not doing as well as expected which is why this post from you strikes me as a bit off.

    Quite a few posters and, more concerning, soccer journalist view each player as an individual performer set aside from team dynamics. McKennie viewed in this frame had a bad night and middling tournament.

    This is a hot take and fails to take into account that the team setup and subsequent imbalances results in a two man midfield with one of the pair unable to defend at an acceptable level. McKennie is then tasked with becoming an outlet/transition to attack/50-50 ball and 2nd ball winner, and defensive cover for his midfield partner.

    There are very very few midfielders that can perform at this level. I think his ceiling is high but maybe 1-2 midfielders a generation can accomplish this ask.
     
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  22. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    100% agree that the egg's system is full of holes. It's nothing I would touch with our talent pool basically because I don't trust our CB's and we don't have a 24 year old Bradley.
     
  23. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought all three of our CBs (I'm not including Gonzo's desperation defense sub) performed well this tournament. With Brooks back from injury (at some point), I feel very comfortable with our CB depth, and perhaps our winger depth (if and once Weah does what most of us think and hope he will). I'm hopeful that Berhalter, as studious as he's supposed to be, will recognize the flaws in what he's done in this tournament and make appropriate changes. Time will tell.
     
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  24. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    I certainly would like to see if they could handle the midfield by themselves. That is a big ask and leaves ya high and dry when one or both are unavailable.
     
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  25. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    They didn't get challenged nearly enough. They were far too comfortable and when they weren't I wasn't loving what I saw. Brooks is proven if not a bit slow but I need time to feel like we have a backline to lean on.
     
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