Post-match: USA vs. Guyana, June 18, 2019 - Gold Cup

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I love this

    dhc1: do you have anything that confirms the widespread allegation that Chandler wasn't committed to the USMNT after he joined the USMNT in early 2013? The only things you've shown so far discusses his hesitation to forgo playing for Germany and that his club team didn't want him to play for the USMNT.

    Officespace: I've already shown you everything and you just can't see!

    Here's a few questions for you:
    1. is the totality of your evidence the articles that discuss his hesitation to forgo playing for Germany around 2012-2013?
      1. Honore de ballsac stated that he heard it from sources he trusts close to the USMNT but didn't think there was any public evidence
      2. tomasbernal said that he recalls various BS accounts from years ago but didn't provide any direct evidence (which is fine)
      3. THHF actually provided articles refuting the assertion and showed that he disregarded his club team's wishes by playing for the USMNT
    2. If so, do you think that should be held against him as "uncommitted"?
    3. Does missing a camp for injury mean one is uncommitted?
    4. Do you now view Adams as uncommitted?
     
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  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    THHF,

    Do you have articles showing that Chandler flew to the US and then was sent home? Thanks.
     
  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks. I'm not sure it's factual but I'm always looking for information beyond opinion and innuendo.

    the one thing I personally think is important is the willingness to debate with people on both the "left/right" of me on any issue. If i find that if the only people who disagree with me are on my right (or left), I'm pretty wary that I've gone too far.
     
  4. rgli13

    rgli13 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    what- and i mean in the everloving hell- makes you think ANYONE has to prove anything to you, much less documentation?

    this has gone on for 3 pages. learn how to google or shut the hell up. or god, i dont know, do what everybody else on message boards do- just assume youre right, everyone else is wrong and move on.

    but please, PLEASE- stop hijacking this entire thread with a five year old argument no one cares about but you.
     
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  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    When has Chandler looked good for the NT???

    If he looked miserable when he was at his peak, what makes people think he's going to look good --or better than what we have-- after over a year not playing?
     
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  6. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I also seem to vaguely remember he's one of those guys that are afraid to fly and going to the US from Europe is a long flight. It does seem once he committed to the US he became a lot more dependable. I also don't think he was always bad for the US. He played left back a few times and was pretty good at a spot where pretty good usually keeps getting chances. He did play terrible in Central America (can't remember which country) where he went from German winter to hot sweltering hell. I think that qualifying games on the road bring some difficulties that make it hard to just play the best players. Need fighters who can handle the heat in the winter. Is that Chandler? Probably not but that lets out a lot of guys. He'd be good for the US game especially if it was cool or cold.
     
  7. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Zardes must read the game pretty well to even be in position for his comic mishap scores. Colman for FCD is equally inept but he doesn't get the comic scores either so Zardes at least wins over other forwards who struggle to score with their feet. He can start a school on how to score with unorthodox body parts. I'm picturing the Monty Python sketch where they teach students how to defend themselves with fruit but instead Zardes is teaching how to score with odd body parts.
     
  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think it is Neil Blackmon, a very reputable guy, said he spoke to Fabian personally, this Spring, and that is what he told him. Fabian added he had not heard back.
     
  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Obstentisvely, Nagbe is not on the 23 because he is unfamiliar with the System. He is unfamiliar because he wasn't at Camp Cupcake. He wasn't at Cupcake because it was not important enough and he needed to get rest following the season.

    To sum up, he isn't at the Gold Cup because they didn't think it necessary to call him into a camp that turned out to be a prerequisite for participating.
     
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  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I'm assuming you're talking to me. My point here is to simply get to the bottom of the oft-used narrative that Chandler isn't committed to the USMNT and secondarily to counteract some of the ridiculousness of OfficeSpace's wild assertions.

    My viewpoint isn't dissimilar to one that Tomasbernal stated:

    No one has to prove anything here but I'll continue to call out that if there's no evidence for something, I don't think it should be taken as factual, which on this particular point, it appears it is.

    You are welcome to use the ignore function, of course.
     
  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i get what you're saying and as someone who played physical defense i know it can be contagious. however that is like accidental option 3 after selection and yelling. holmes is one of the few people i have seen picked who has some fight in his current DNA. bradley had it but that segment broke down with age. trapp never had it, he likes to try to play chess games but is actually not conventional or that bright about the lines he takes.

    one reason my lineup yesterday had mckennie and holmes is because i think on top of attacking they will bring their defensive lunchpail. i don't like the current NT vogue of a bunch of DMs in the midfield. but i see them as capable of looking like AMs and then they will do the dirty work. and then have Adams behind them.

    I say that because I don't think Adams alone is going to rub off that much and inspire the rest to get off their tookuses. personally i think you need to already have it in the DNA and the tough customer just gives the reminder like a coach could by raising his voice.
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think Pomykal has a defensive dogginess as well too.
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #588 juvechelsea, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    Chandler doesn't like flying and has said as much openly to the press. I want to say there was at least one period where that was an issue leading to him being out. Some years we have more European friendlies than others, but big picture it's a package deal and come qualifying it's get your butt on a plane. Commitment doesn't have to be Subotic or Rossi loyalty issues, it can also be I fear doing the thing that is necessary to play for us. Or Landon or Howard and their sabbaticals.

    If it's not a literal nationality issue I am open to people wandering off but in practical terms you give up your incumbency privileges and there are no guarantees you are the hot item wanted back later on.

    I want to say Chandler had an initial flourish in his first caps -- I remember him being great at wall balling his way forward -- but tailed off. He didn't play in Brazil, though he made the team, and he didn't seize a starting spot last cycle. To me he's a 29 year old who never was The Guy and thus only poses an option to consider. Age is a big picture issue.

    FJ was at one time integral but you had the Mexico playoff issues where he gets subbed and we then lose. He is 31.

    The two, to me, are Omar/Bradley security blankets. I rattled off a list of interesting appropriate age Germans yesterday. They should not be on a Gold Cup team and we should only consider them as emergency replacements once qualifying starts. I could understand calling in veterans when money is on the table in qualifying and we have a gap. But this is the harmless part of the cycle -- even though on paper these games count -- where you want to find the Boyds and Holmeses with plenty of tread, not already be reaching back for people who might not lost 2022 and got dropped for reasons before.
     
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  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I like mendez for that shot and Pomykal may work out interesting as well. The annoying part of the midfield, to me, is not the absence of talent -- either of age or coming up -- but instead the retrograde selection and shoving Adams out. That we continue to lean backwards towards the barren period even as we exit it.

    I think we would give people fits with our true first team offense. We may have limited elite talent but we have some dangermen nonetheless.

    Defense is where I am concerned and only Richards looked like he would be helpful. Dest to me had a Dutch defender's sensibilities, useful in attack but problematic on defense ie no different than Yedlin or Robinson. Don't get me started on Keita and the rest.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #590 juvechelsea, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    There is very little reason to balance age and experience. The team did poorly last cycle, in part because of the fading abilities of the same people you want to bring back as "balance."

    The reality is that the part of the pool worth swimming in went very young because the old guard got old and the Nagbe Generation never got rolling. If the old guard is past it and the Trapps are never wases, you skip down to where the talent is. It may be nervewracking to bet on kids who aren't even fully proven professionals but it is what it is.

    Plus, this is the part of the cycle when -- even if they count -- they don't REALLY count. This is when you try and find people of appropriate age with tread who can play for years. The part of the cycle when you dial Bradley or FJ is 2 games into the semi round and the starter gets hurt and it's like I don't want to experiment, I need a result. Grab the batphone.

    But otherwise focus on 18-25 who will be around the whole cycle and are the future of the team. I think we are very set in the Win Now mentality of a team that always qualifies and didn't usually have lulls in talent development. So you had 15-20 players already sorted and were just looking for subs or the Next Big Thing. You can't do that when the team is decimated by age and not qualifying. We're kind of in the second rate team's situation of just trying to find the people who play well to start. Players who used to have an arc of a few years to a lineup are now immediate starters if the coach likes them. Last game was the closest GB has looked to trying to find the actual performers.
     
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  16. honest trade

    honest trade Member

    Aug 15, 2010
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bit late to the party but wanted to post my impressions from the match. I kind of zoned out in the middle of the second half around the 65' or 70' mark so these are related to performance in the first 3/4 of the match.

    The good:

    -Boyd looks like a find and may be the winger we have been missing.

    The bad:

    -Bradley of course was bad, but his first half was particularly so. He isn't good when he is pressured, either back passing or turning it over. Then he doesn't have the speed to recover. Even Stu mentioned he looked a little off, which is about as critical as he ever gets.

    -Central defense looks extremely shaky, especially since they had limited options to advance the ball (basically no LB, only Bradley dropping back). Also not good under pressure, which combined with Bradley is a recipe for disaster against stronger foes.

    -If we had a better option than Zardes we probably would have scored a few more goals. Didn't combine well or put himself in dangerous positions. His hold up play was also poor.

    I'm concerned about Berhalter's approach here. In a vacuum it may work, but the players he picked do not have the ability to implement it, and it doesn't play to the strengths of they players that he has. Playing out of the back is not going to work because the CB's are not good when the ball is pressured, aren't great passers and have limited options for advancing the ball up the field, and the #6 is not good when pressured, is prone to giving up the ball and is too slow to win it back. The #6 can't be the only option for advancing the ball in the midfield, especially when there isn't really an outlet on the left.

    While there are a lot of reasons to be negative, there are at least a few things to enjoy, namely watching Pulisic, Boyd and McKennie. Integrating Boyd into the team may prove to be a silver lining in what will likely be a disappointing end to the tournament.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Wooten, like Nova and some others, has been capped, and didn't score. If you play a production position, part of the evaluation is can you produce at this level. That's an on-off switch. The ball is either in the net or not. Green has done it, they haven't. If I need a sub in a qualifier, and am maybe even a goal down -- I want the one who has done it before. I am not going to make the multi-layer bet that they show quality and score for the first time.

    Failing that, next up, ones who looked close to scoring. Gall, for example.

    I will say Wooten had a good strike rate where I without thinking pushed him at a point this year. But he's 29. For a team that didn't qualify we need to get off of the treadmill of setting the team up to be built around old popes.

    To me if he plays well again in MLS I'd call him in but I think unless he scores hat tricks he's the wrong age for the future. And by future I'm starting off in just 3 years.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    in season, yes, but this is the european off season.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i think we are a tad early to make definitive predictions there, but the facts are the balls in the net. fwiw boyd could turn out to be a hot mess and that shot will make him useful for a decade. zardes' tool like that is speed which is a more indirect contributor to goals than a sweet shot.

    it's like preki used to be or i think mendez can be, someone who can hit a shot is quite useful for that alone and will likely continue to pile them up barring injury.

    green has a similar knack for the net. in a game determined by putting balls in a net that is the ultimate useful skill.
     
  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #595 juvechelsea, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    would you move Arriola back? I don't think in a reasonable world he should be the LW ahead of Pulisic.

    would you move McKennie back?

    M. Robinson was in my 23, can he run enough for a wing?

    i just am not a big fan of us sitting on our hands, if it doesn't quite work, you do something else. and something else. and something else. you worry about "gelling" when you find a half dozen backs who can actually play. that argument tends to beg the question of who we should be gelling. last cycle we settled on the wrong ensemble of players and cycling through them didn't help. no amount of gelling would have fixed that when the components themselves are flawed.

    Ream to me is sitting on your hands, or taking the passing part of the position too seriously. Robinson doesn't have a defensive knack. Lovitz impresses me even less. etc. etc.

    Lima we are about to see how he handles a decent opposition. ditto Long and Zimmerman though i have more faith in them.
     
  21. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I think you and I might be conductor and vice conductor on the Miles Robinson hype train...lol.

    I don't think our pool is very well suited to play with wing backs. I said it in the other thread but I would play Lichaj at left back in our current system and actually, in just about any four back system we have right now. I think he's an excellent actual defender, has decent enough speed to not get blown by against Concacaf attackers, is on the tail end of his prime (younger than Ream) but still in it, and is a pretty good passer just never too prone to bomb forward which is exactly what Egg is asking. He played the last four months of the season as Hull's left back after being the right back up until then and earned positive reviews.

    If we are going to play with wing backs, I guess I would play Yedlin on the right and Arriola on the left although I don't love Yedlin in that role. At that point, Miles Robinson and Long both have to be on the roster because you have to have someone in your back three with some pace. I also think both Miles Robinson and a healthy Long would be fine at left back in the current setup, better than Ream and Lovitz but not as good as Lichaj there.

    Regarding McKennie, I think he can play right back just like Tyler Adams can play right back but it's not smart to play either of them there because Yedlin is one of our best players and it displaces him. They need to be in a double pivot defensive center mid system with someone like Holmes in front of them and Pulisic on the right wing with Boyd or Weah on the left. I think a lot of players could be successful 10's with Adams and McKennie behind them and that combo of wingers to play into the channels.
     
  22. DaBurg

    DaBurg Member

    Apr 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After watching the game against Guyana I came away with a sense that we were playing very slow. Not in the physical speed sense, but the decision making. Each time a new pass was completed, the player with the ball would constantly hesitate and not know what their next move was going to be. They're playing like they're afraid and don't want to mess up a pass rather than knowing where the next player should be and making the play regardless of the potential outcome. Maybe it's the formation, maybe it's the players, but we need to start implementing quicker decisiveness and movement.
     
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  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The article I posted was very explicit. He came to the Copa100 camp after injuring his quad during his club's relegation playoff win. He was in camp but could not play in the Ecuador friendly because he was injured. He was sent home and replaced on the roster by Castillo.

    What is missing?
     
  24. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    wait so wooten played one match as a substitute in 2015 but didn't score so he is done lol
    nova got three matches one as a sub in like the 77th minute...but didn't score so he is done

    its official you are literally only watching highlights and not matches its really sa at this point.

    Green doesn't produce for his club for 5 years...oh but he scored against belgium five years ago so he is a must into the lineup lol.

    then the amazing thing he outperforms green in germany in the same league...not good enough for you but he now needs hat tricks in mls to prove he is good enough but then you'll just argue an mls bias.

    its amazing how much you just don't get it at all.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Sorry if I got it wrong (sometimes I can't see the full article from my desk apparently), but I don't see anything mentioning him being in camp (having flown across the pond) as opposed to just being injured.
     

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