USA vs. Canada, 10/15/2019 [R] - Post-Mortem

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by schrutebuck, Oct 15, 2019.

  1. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Once Pulisic came back from his March injury, he became a starter at Dortmund. He was a starter the entire month of May. It is a weird insecurity where we make up even worse histories for American players.

    Pulisic last May was playing better than any of the wing options for Dortmund are playing now, including Sancho.
     
    btlove, Namdynamo and bsky22 repped this.
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #952 juvechelsea, Oct 30, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
    wrong. incorrect. buzz. i watched them all year. specifically. like almost every game. the team was decimated by injuries at the end. the coach's hand was forced. the telling detail is that coach let that team slip to second and didn't change. pulisic came back when we're 6 points down and half the offense is knacked and they need bodies.

    personally i think favre is overrated and there should have been a place for pulisic somewhere every week. some of it is our players often get pigeonholed. he could probably play anywhere but 6. but he was paired with sancho and lost that battle. and thus sat. until the injuries mounted and it's like we need all hands on deck.

    but the deal is at the big teams there is a bunch of talent and sometimes coaching changes, and you don't necessarily come out ahead. this remains true of weaker players at weaker teams. but good players by going slightly down the table can make themselves fixtures. and fixtures rarely suffer just because the coach changes, not until they are 30+ and slipping.

    but we want the brass ring and on brass ring teams they can dress gotze sancho witsel reus, and even bring someone like paco alcacer off the bench. i think there is an american arrogance to pretending that has to turn out your way. like i said, that cute little economics study sweeps away the ones who lose that showdown.

    i am not absolutely against big club choices, or against ambition. it's just whether you chose right is in significant part a function of whether you actually play there. the higher we go up the scale the bigger that risk gets. right now the results from that risk aren't playing out very well. i judge results.
     
  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    As usual, it is your "perception of what you remember" as opposed to actual facts.

    Who was hurt for Dortmund in May?

    Brunn-Larsen was healthy. Sancho was healthy. Reus was healthy. Gotze was healthy. Guerrero was healthy. Even Phillip was healthy; and he had been hurt quite a bit. I doubt there was a time all season, that Guerrero, Reus, Pulisic, and Phillip were all healthy at the same time until May. Pulisic started then.

    Pulisic was out of favor in January-February and then hurt in March. But he worked his way back to being a starter. That is a fact.

    Everyone that had played in the front attacking 3 for BVB all season played in May. Pulisic had the important opening goals in the games against Bremen and Dusseldorf. He was one of their best players down the stretch.

    Why is it necessary to change the actual historical facts? Why do people need to think Pulisic is failing all the time?

    Pulisic was on the WhoScored Team of the Month for May! Do you think non-starters make that?
     
    RalleeMonkey, dams, btlove and 3 others repped this.
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #954 juvechelsea, Oct 30, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
    in terms of my personal experience, when i first joined my select team it was good but not great. but they had ambitions and sponsors and built around me and a few players. and we kept incrementally adding people around us and after about 4 years were state champs. stayed in the top few and then did it again 2 years later. i didn't avoid ambition, i went to a team that had me planned into their ambitions. confident in myself to take a higher level but also smart enough to feel out who wanted me for what roles. there were teams that were initially doing better that made me no promises. come in and compete. in a few years we were above them.

    to me there are plenty of similar examples, adams at RB leipzig, dempsey at fulham. your argument is instead go play for the state champs straight away. what you're missing is we are already there and somewhat resistant to change. we may want you but we're not saying if it's to start or provide depth.

    my experience was find the ambitious team and get in on the ground floor. this used to be a capitalist trope but now people seem to chase the MBA myth of showing up at the Fortune 500 interview and saying your goal is to be CEO in 15 years. like you are the only one who shows up there thinking that. it sounds laudable in the abstract but in practical terms is a hothouse with no guarantees. in fact the suggestion of zelalem is that arsenal on your resume, and nothing else, doesn't equate to some great next job. people are in fact looking at numbers and tape. if arsenal never plays you and you end up in the scottish second division, people are taking note. just as much as if you go to hull or fulham and are the captain.

    and my practical point here is based on how many people we have at big clubs versus how many stay there and start, the statistical odds are not good. you can p*ss and moan about lack of ambition or you can view the actual outcomes. the practical outcomes suggest you can get signed there right now but staying and playing is another thing.

    and there is a such thing as your team is ambitious but you are secure.
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    just to throw something else out, over those years, i developed the assumption we would always win. i never felt out of a game. 99% of the time wasn't. but that was learned, not faith based. i wouldn't have been scared of some experiments because this team is good and wins everything, usually. throw some people out, we usually win, and maybe with this we'll be even better.

    i think the us mentality, while sold as a winning culture, is currently that of a midtable scared team that doesn't trust it will win, and is scared to take chances, and falls back on security blankets all the dang time. to me if you're not first place wtf are you secure about.

    saying all this mission statement stuff is sooooooo not the same as actually living it. just like this is the peak of big club america and the crappiest team in decades. there is no correlation between the two.

    i encourage experimentation not because i am ok with losing, but for the opposite reason. i am not ok with whatever the f*ck this is. you don't change that by running the same people out 5 more times telling yourself this is what we can manage. at some point we went from hungry to scared.
     
  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    My point was that a coach not rating him, doesn't change his talent. You think Favre had him sold? Just another dumb comment that shows you dont know what you are talking about.
     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    First of all, you clearly dont understand others argument.

    Second, why do we need to keep hearing about your experiences. You didnt accomplish anything in world soccer. The last place I'd look for new ideas on the sport is NCAA and american club soccer.

    Third, there are much better than a kid who blew out his knee and was out almost 2 years in a very critical part of his career.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #958 juvechelsea, Oct 30, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
    dude, get YOUR facts straight. he was in Arsenal's system at 16 in 2013. he hurt his knee in 2017 age 20. so he's in their system 4 years but the knee is everythng?

    at that point he was coming off loan #2 without first team arsenal minutes.

    i will continue to inject personal comments when i feel appropriate and i don't need your permission.

    i understand their argument fine. it's a short cut laden with assumptions. go straight to the top and hope they choose you. the argument is the experience of competition makes you better. it's bunk. teams like that cut or loan people who had that dream every year. the ones who survive make your argument. the larger chunk who don't make mine. my argument is based in practical reality. yours is in theory.

    my argument is that signing at any team in one of these leagues is ambitious and a challenge. even the "bad" ones that get relegated. you don't get to argue anything there is better and then say only the big clubs are an ambitious choice. by default any choice there is more of a challenge than MLS. requires guts, the myth is pretending like only the ones who sign at the top are taking a risk or upping their game. the myth is that much of anyone up there not named pulisic or adams ends up seeing minutes where they sign. these are facts. i am not confused or unable to understand. you can't gold plate a horse pie and make it other than what it is.
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    my point is that your talent level doesn't decide whether big club x likes you. the coach does. not factoring in subjectivity is naive.

    this used to be basic gospel when we thought foreign teams were biased against americans. you don't get objectively rated in some meritocracy. you get signed and played by humans who have biases. pulisic was fine under the old coaches and got time. it switched to favre and he went out of fashion. this is the plight of people at the edge of their abilities on their team. as i said, you want out of that, you go to a team that "feels you" and makes you captain and where you are above -- at least for a while -- subjective fashion choices.

    one of the flaws of invisible hand merit theories is people in reality don't have to be color-blind or objective. they might want to sound like it to not be fired or sued.
     
  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    you clearly dont.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Favre didnt have him sold and he wasnt even a Dortmund player for the second half of the season. All coaches have their players, but nothing like what you probably experienced playing at a low level in america.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    That's a lame parse. He played for Dortmund the full season. He was their property the first half. He was sold to CFC then leased back so to speak the second half. In practical terms he never left their first team roster. His rights were the only thing that moved until this season.

    Sancho and Pulisic predated Favre at BD. In 2017-18 Pulisic played 2312 league minutes across 32 games, Sancho played 685' in 12 games under Bosh and Stoger. Favre comes, in 2018-19, Sancho plays 2460' across 34 games and Pulisic 926' in 20 games. They essentially swapped roles. The coaching change had obvious impact and nothing about what transpired was inevitable.

    I can see the gullible eager to argue that Sancho took off the second year. There is some truth to that, but then so did Pulisic, who had as many goals as the previous year in a fraction less than half of the minutes. The cutesy story told by pro market types is Pulisic had a bad year, but he was actually as productive on goals and more productive per minute. He just wasn't used as much.

    This is what the meritocrat-absolutists don't get, is you can up your game, become demonstrably more productive, and be on the wrong side of the coach and picking up splinters. There is no invisible hand rewarding or punishing you for better or worse play. There is only an actual physical coach with his own biases who likes you or not, and can change year to year. Pulisic was less productive the year he started. Pulisic was more productive the year he was benched.

    You nod your head at the coaches make decisions truism but then ignore the implications for abstracted theories of where to sign to help your career. Reality doesn't care if you are in a competitive situation. Reality cares if the coach likes you. The coach doesn't even necessarily care if you have appeased the invisible hand by upping your game between seasons.
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    any idiot can compete. competing doesn't make you much better of a player, and professionalism and effort should be almost assumed at that level. to me what tends to make a player better is what he does out of games and competitions. foot skill drills. defensive drills. working on your shot. etc.

    if you stuck some novice out there with neymar, they wouldn't magically become good and experienced. they would just get their tails kicked and probably not learn a darned thing. now, if i had worked at my soccer for years, i show up to practice with neymar, we test whether i have done enough work. but if i am successful it's probably from the several prior teams i had building me up to that point.

    as i pointed out, many of the people y'all were listing were stars in their home countries brought over already successful to the big club. the pretense the big club "did it" is laughable. i think a guy scoring 20 goals a year in his domestic league and player of the year there probably showed up already very good at soccer.

    i also detailed how there were mismatches with success of their NT. lewandowski would get signed and poland wouldn't make the world cup for 2 more cycles.

    y'all are confusing development with the GM's office. if CFC develops someone from age 10, bravo, full credit. but the GM signing a paycheck to a new recruit doesn't make the incoming players suddenly great. someone else did that work.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    How's Almiron doing this year?
     
    laxcoach repped this.
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #965 juvechelsea, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/spo...-miguel-almiron-struggling-newcastle-16984499

    personally i wouldn't sign for a relegation fighter because they can be too busy trying to keep head above water to be a good showcase. the suggestion here is they are too desperately defending to get players like almiron on the ball in good positions.

    the problem here is i am sure you use this to rip on the idea of not signing with the best team. holding each in isolation.

    the smarter reaction is, maybe i don't need to sign for city unless i am already world class. and maybe it would be dumb to sign for relegation bait. you carve out the ends and that leaves the middle and then the championship.

    it's a question of odds. the odds of ending up like almiron are high with the biggest clubs. they are low, more surprising, further down.

    people act like this is crazy talk but if you were about to sign in MLS as a rookie, and were looking for an immediate showcase for your talents, you might want to look hard over the rosters before signing at LAFC or Seattle or Atlanta to make sure you're not bench bait, and you might also think twice before signing for Cincy that looks like complete trash. maybe some other teams might not play suitable systems or have coaches who don't play kids or who have reputations. you winnow it down to a smart choice that probably plays you and has enough talent to showcase you. and if you're successful here you transfer on to england or germany or whatever.

    and maybe if you prove yourself a few times you end up on a big club's doorstep but with an adult resume.

    you could do the same thing for coaches. ramos signed with houston. between the lines it sounds like we will stay dirt cheap on payroll with the abysmal jordan as GM. maybe we spend more on the academy, or maybe not. does this sound like your best ladder from U20 to senior NT coach? we've run through 6 coaches in roughly that many years. we have 1 playoff year to show for it. is this the wise choice to launch your career? why can't a player think that way?
     
    TOAzer repped this.
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    this take is not aging well. Early yet though.
     
  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    NUFC is now fighting for Europa (tied for 8th) and Almiron still hasn’t scored.

    are they still relegation fighters?
     
  18. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    intermountain west
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hard to tell if he's trolling with that stuff or just blinded by something else.
     
  19. btlove

    btlove Member

    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    Austin Texas
    IMO he just knows that most players don’t reach their potential, so he hedges his bets by calling everyone terrible, that way when he is right he gets to act like the smartest man in the room.
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We need a pre-mortem.
     

Share This Page