Post-match: USA v Mexico

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Also, FWIW, it seems like a different formation each time with Sarachan, so it's not like we're implementing something coherent intended to last. He's just throwing bodies on the field in a shape trying to get results. I know that's what coaches do in a sense, but the first half came across as a particularly flailing about version of it. Not like we ran out the France lineup in the France formation. OK, this time let's try hyperconservative with bulk defensive mids. And then they can't connect a pass, hold a ball, or even really ball win.

    I thought it proved there is a point of no return where there is simply not enough skill to create chances, possess, and compete at an international level. As though some of the Gold Cup group games don't make this point sometimes. That we're not so good we can literally toss workhorse options out there and win.
     
  2. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I watched the match against Minn. He was everywhere. He showed good pace in keeping up with Quintero when the two were matched up. Loved his quickness and strength. His intelligence in movement was exceptional.

    Needs a good run of health, though.
     
    yabo repped this.
  3. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    #478 matabala, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    I've long thought this was a real weakness in the "American" soccer player. In a sense, it's due to over-coaching young players. Soccer being a flowing, switching and free-thinking exercise, you get these earnest coaches at the youngest age groups trying to be rigid X & O managers. It's a self-defeating system with kids not learning to be spontaneous, inventive or think on their own AND young coaches trained to be too reliant on rote, textbook USSF rules rather than being able to teach real world, in game tactics.
     
  4. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I definitely remember this for all the holier than thou Mexican fans who act like they never do any gamesmanship (and can't stop using the P chant every game).
     
    RalleeMonkey and Winoman repped this.
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I mean, be real, he did a joking gesture. Their guy was whacking him to earn the foul, and then someone shoved him after the gesture. And then a couple minutes later a two footed red carder. And we're talking about a non-obscene hand gesture? To me, if he's making jokey gestures he can't take a swing at someone.

    Why aren't we talking about, after dominating the first half, they came completely unraveled. Elbows, two footers, shoving, etc. If we're talking behavior and gamesmanship. Or that, fracas aside, our people showed restraint, nothing physical, no punches, maybe one retaliatory yellow from Wood. For a game that got heated we stayed pretty chill actually.
     
    2in10 and Winoman repped this.
  6. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    Funny thing is I'm not even a huge Trapp fan. It's just that, as I get older, I have come to appreciate what a pure #6 brings. Trapp strikes me as a pure #6. (And maybe as I get even older, I will realize how stupid my younger self really was in that appreciation of the 6. We'll see.)

    Agree with the consensus that McK and Adams are more dynamic and have loads of upside. Just disagree that they would've been the better option today at the 6 in a 4141, although we'll never know because that's not how DS lined them up.
     
    ChrisSSBB repped this.
  7. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A healthy Danny Williams would protect the back 4 and give McKennie/Adams far more freedom to move forward.

    Not a mistake our best midfield performance under Sarachan vs Portugal was

    -----McKennie------Acosta------
    --------------Williams-----------------

    So replace Acosta with Adams.
     
  8. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member

    Aug 1, 2014
    Hopefully, we will know after US Soccer hires a real coach.
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #484 juvechelsea, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    To me, the Trapps of the world make the obvious, positioning plays, but the ones that make the difference are when some world class speedster is headed down a line, and you can't angle them off, and you either have the speed or not, and are willing and able to get stuck in.

    I don't buy into the racial thing but I think there are some who fall for brains in isolation. I think only so many times in a soccer game can you do it with pure thought and positioning. Or Bobby Boswell would be world class. Sometimes you have to move more than 5 yards. Parkhurst is another in this vein.

    Example: that DC play where Rooney goes 100 mph back, slide tackles the runner hard with zero hesitation, then whacks a gorgeous 50 yard diagonal that results in a goal. Sometimes you are on an island and only you can do it and you're doing it at track meet speed. Trapp never gets that because he is not the jock enough to do it.

    Added point, what Rooney did required smarts and skill of its own. As does Jones, etc. But they get painted as "physical" rather than "smart" because, ironically, they have the athleticism and guts to stay with an athlete and make the physical play. But their sense of positioning isn't any less rarified than Trapp's. What Trapp does stands out in isolation because he doesn't have a lot more to offer. I can see Jones making the very play Trapp couldn't on that baseline.

    And we haven't talked much about offense, but while the ability to move the ball side to side is nice and preferable to some nervous DM who can only play backwards, what I really want is Jones hitting dangerous balls into the box like an added creator. Trapp has some of that ability, but it only manifests on dead balls. Otherwise it's tepid sideways stuff. And while people play up Trapp's shooting, cold stats are 2 career goals for Cbus and 1 for the USA. There are DMs who get that each season.

    Ironically, I think his best use would be up 2-0 or 3-0 with 10 minutes left when you want to play keepaway, and head off any attacks with smart positioning. He would keep the ball moving and in theory sweep up errors. But in a contested game against some athletic mid from the opening whistle? Buy him a jetpack.
     
    TheHoustonHoyaFan repped this.
  10. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    [​IMG]

    Sorry, it's a favorite ...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I also, similarly pointedly, think some people's idea of soccer is something like Holland, who I don't think has ever won a world cup, and whose domestic league plays to 6-4 type scores often. About every world cup winner in recent memory has some Kante/Gattuso snarling cruncher playing at a high level and liberating the pretty players people want to talk about to do their attacking work. Instead of fighting this, embrace that the one guy in the 6 needs to be the one doing dark things in the shadows so the pretty players have the ball to go the other way.

    Having 1 or 2 guys like that doesn't mean the rest can't be Mbappe or the like.
     
  12. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Trapp had a nice track-back and dispossession in the France match.

    It should also be noted when he had more of the defensive responsibilities in the Crew midfield, Trapp was among the leading tacklers in the league.

    But the US player I'm most reminded of when posters argue the merits of Beckerman is Pablo Mastroeni. Now that guy was a roving destroyer whose steely, rangy defense could set the table for the advanced players in a way neither Beckerman nor Trapp can do. The closest analog among the current pool is Danny Williams, whose fitness to often in question.
     
    TrueCrew and yabo repped this.
  13. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone clearly hasn't watched Danny Williams play much...
     
    ChrisSSBB repped this.
  14. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member

    Aug 1, 2014
    Interestingly, in the ESPN Deportes show Futbol Picante after the USA-Mexico match, they talked about the game for an hour and were generally impressed with the US performance, at least most commentators. They singled out Weah in particular.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I don’t remember a lot of incisive passes by Mexico - they simply passed around our defensive shape. That’s fine for us to give mexico empty possession.
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You don’t think a 6 has to be a ball winner or you think that WT is a ball winner?
     
    TheHoustonHoyaFan repped this.
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Klinsmann played with a bunch of defensive CMs plus a true DM (Edu or Beckerman) at some points in his first cycle, but then we had good set pieces. We could sneak a win, to the despair of true soccer aficionados, by playing antifootball for 80 minutes, then getting the free kick for a goal.

    One of the big differences between JK first and second cycles is that in his second cycle, we didn't have anyone decent to take set pieces, so when we created no chances from the run of play, it was more obvious.
     
  18. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Changing to a new system under a coach that only tells you to go out there and express yourself is a recipe for disaster.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    By that you mean Steffen had to parry a corner out of the upper 90 (15') and the play I've been yapping about where Lainez outflanks Trapp only for the defender to stone the attacker on the square ball in (35').

    I guess walking up the endline and passing to the 6 counts as "passing around our defensive shape." That one just went around the whole back of the shape.

    I also feel a hint of after the fact hindsight in the argument when it looked to me like we'd been whooped for about 4 straight halves going back to second half France. That and the fact that subs and a de facto change of tactics when we made them, made us suddenly more competitive. It's not that we pulled an Algeria or the like and with some consistent approach defended and defended until the counter opening. We got our tails kicked til a first half injury sub, and then after making a second sub we started to dominate. Wrong selection, wrong tactics. When it looked that bad and disorganized I struggle to buy it was some purposeful rope a dope.

    I get Mexico likes to pass it around and have seen us basically fall into a deep shell and let them pass sideways. But we were pressing higher than that and they were running right BY people and basically cracking the shell.
     
  20. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know what you are getting with Trapp. Coaches like that. With so many changes and uncertainties throughout the team, it is nice to have a nice, predictable, serviceable platform to build off. And evaluate from.

    Trapp will not be starting in 3 years, though he could be in the 23.
     
    ChrisSSBB repped this.
  21. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Funny, to me, the Trapp play was a result of him getting faked out, not a lack of athleticism. He assumed the cross was coming as they approached the endline, and bit when the attacker faked the cross.

    Now, I am not saying Trapp is uber athletic. He is not.

    The play looked unathletic because he fell over after trying to scramble up and chase after getting faked out. And I guess that part was unathletic. But he was already beat at that point.

    But he got beat because he bit on the fake.

    Am I thinking of the correct play?
     
  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yep.

    I think the one vital difference between Trapp and Dreads is intelligence. Dreads was a very limited, but quite smart player. Trapp is less limited, but he's a regular nice chap.

    I suspect his nephews can fake him out.
     
  23. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    If possible remove the round hole until the superior square peg has been sanded down to fit. Adams is starting to learn and apply the positional discipline required for the role.

    Compared to those other options Trapp is best at making field spreading passes and worst at winning physical battles (his tackle success rate is good but that doesn't fully account for this aspect). Field spreading passing is most valuable for a team that... spreads the field through smart, cognizable positioning and rotations and wants the ball. So if we're not going to do that then the cost benefit analysis is as bad for Trapp as possible.

    My base XI is a 3-4-3/3-5-2 and Trapp is not in it because the system/strategy I want favors different things from CM.
     
    juveeer and Winoman repped this.
  24. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    My model is Napoli from a few years ago, based on how the CM and the trident (one ST and two AM's) play.

    Mobile CB's are key, especially on the outside, not just on defense (tracking into the corners and stepping to attackers in front of the backline) but also on offense. If we're only facing one ST, and actually in general, a CB has to take the space in front of him and connect passes into the attacking half. Brooks is great at this but everyone needs to be competent at it.
     
    juveeer repped this.
  25. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    What makes Kante unique is that he has exceptional quickness so he can cover more ground and thus effectively defend a larger part of the field but he is not a Naby Keita or Vidal type. He still primarily positions himself unselfishly to provide defensive support (more than his CM partners) but while doing that his quickness and reading of the game allows him to jump passing lanes.
     

Share This Page