Post-match: USA v France

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by FirstStar, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Lookingforleftbacks

    Galaxy
    United States
    Dec 17, 2016
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t have Fox Soccer at this point but here’s a look at the type of thing I’ll be doing. Mostly either analysis or good and bad plays. I’ll spend a lot of time on prospects but also USMNT players, too.

     
  2. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    JMO, but Parks at least has almost 4000 minutes of pro soccer under his belt at this time. I know people don't think much of the Segunda Liga but he's playing against men the vast majority of the time. He's also gotten 1st team minutes with Benfica who had plenty of other options to give those minutes to but chose him.

    Weah's in the same boat. Though he played more U-19 ball, he also played in the UEFA U-19, and time with the 1st team.

    Sargent is the exception who probably wouldn't be there at all except our striker pool is so bad and he stood out at the U-17 & U-19 WC.

    Carleton is struggling to get USL minutes, though I mostly blame Martino for that. Pomykal has been injured and also hasn't gotten a ton of minutes at USL or MLS. Both have tremendous potential but for various reasons haven't shown it enough yet. I expect them to get more time under their belt and to become being options next year but for now they're not.

    I don't think it's some vast conspiracy. I expect both to be at camp cupcake, along with Durkin, Mueller, Cannon, Hayes, McKinzie, Trusty, Long, D. Acosta, etc. There are going to be plenty of friendlies for the MLS based guys to show their stuff soon enough.
     
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  3. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Fair enough on Parks, although I'm not sure I'd really regard Portuguese second division minutes, especially when its with a reserve team. Weah has played 3 first team matches. Thats less than all of the MLS'ers I named. He's not in any same boat. Sargent has earned it even less at the club level. 0 pro games. Now, the point about the striker pool is fair and a reason why they might have been called up, but its not like the attacking mid pool is great, so its not really the greatest argument. I do agree that the striker pool is bad though. Sargent and Weah stood out less at the U-17 WC than Carleton (and Durkin) and I'm not really sure standing out at a youth tournament qualifies them to get regular NT call ups.

    To me, it seems like these guys are getting special priority due to playing in Europe. The way I see it, these guys (along with Olosunde, de la Torre who got recent call ups) have all barely played any first team football. And until they get those reps, they don't deserve NT call ups. It seems like a lot of people agree with that logic for MLS'ers, but for the players in Europe, as soon as the hype starts, we are told they should be called up to the NT. So I do see a double-standard. I'm not saying it applies for everyone, but I think numerous people have demonstrated that this is their viewpoint. And I don't think its right. I don't even want any of them to be called up yet, but don't discriminate or give certain players preference based on league.
     
  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How about a Bobby Wood 40 yard sprint to goal like goals #2 and #1 shown here starting at 1:50:

     
  5. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Member

    Mar 21, 2007
    Boston, MA USA
    Club:
    Pumas UNAM
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't care how many more goals Green scores for USMNT, he'll always be an old-looking mediocrity as far as I'm concerned.
     
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  6. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Shouldn't this be Bobby Wood 5 Goals?
    they totally should have just added the other 5
     
  7. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Players should take the space given to them in their own half and then pass to the open man when the defense collapses.

    If someone can not tell the difference between a situation where a player picks the ball up in their defensive third with their team bunkered and pinned back or a transition moment or moment after a long outlet in the attacking half then...
     
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  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    First team minutes doesn’t mean anything as making PSG’s squad is a totally different kettle of fish than minor league/MLS. 99% of MLS wouldn’t get a second of playing time at an elite club.

    You keep saying “Europe” when the issue is really major league vs minor league and most European clubs are minor league just like MLS.

    However, the majors are entirely different. Players on the fringe of a major league team certainly deserve equal looks to minor league starters. Quite frankly, our threshold should be that minor leaguers need to be dominating their league to even consider supplanting a bench-type major leaguers. Both types should be brought into the pool but tie goes to major leaguer IMO.
     
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  9. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure what your argument is. Did Wood score against France?
     
  10. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    But your logic runs into flaws. Julian Green was the major leagues. How did that work out?

    There's a difference between being a reserve player on PSG (which Weah is), and being in the team regularly. He's not. He got into a couple matches at the end of last season when they had nothing to play for. Weah's going to have to drop down a level for a loan (because he's clearly not taking playing time from Neymar, Mbappe, Cavani, even benchers like Draxler, Di Maria, etc.). What happens then? Does he no longer get the advantage of playing in the majors leagues?

    You are essentially admitting that you are discriminating based on club affiliation. Can you explain how that specifically makes sense for the National Team? Because I don't understand it. There is no magical power from having a big club on your resume, especially if you aren't a regular at that club. We have to assess Weah's level, not Neymar or Mbappe's level.
     
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  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #511 DHC1, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    I think that elite major league clubs look for both current talent and future potential. They aren’t infallible by any means but what they look for is not dissimilar to what the usmnt should look for (current talent and potential, particularly at this stage of the cycle. Argggh!). If a youth player is showing signs of having enough potential to intrigue an elite club that’s something that matters a lot. However, let’s be clear that this only applies to youth players and elite clubs (Big 4 UCL clubs plus a few PSGs). As one moves to even the early 20s or at bottom half major league clubs, it’s much less compelling to me.

    Next, it seems clear that making not making the squad at PSG doesn't mean that they player isn't well above minor league level - there's such a wide gap that exist there. That's why I stated that 99% of MLS couldn't get one second of playing time for PSG. You call it "discrimination based on club affiliation", I think of it as major league players are usually better than minor league players and soccer is the world's best sports meritocracy.

    In summary, it seems obvious to me that there’s a significant amount of uncertainty whether minor league players in general and specifically MLS players can compete effectively at WCQ speeds. That’s not to say that they can’t as we’ve seen some excellent performances by minor league players but rather that it’s quite hard to predict. MB’s steady deterioration is example A even though he performs well in the minors.

    Underperformance happens as well with major league players but IMO at lower frequency and those players often have higher potential as well and have some recent experience playing against elite teams who play at the highest levels. MLS doesn’t provide that at all.

    p.s., Green couldn't have performed any better in Brazil - he did exactly what we wanted/needed him to do. It was a good call up, in hindsight. Conversely, Wondo didn't work out.
     
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  12. Maitreya

    Maitreya Member+

    Apr 30, 2007
    Providence, RI
    You have to evaluate players as individuals, regardless of club affiliation, but one of the main reasons, besides prestige, why players in Europe with little first team pro experience get so many USMNT games is that the USMNT plays a lot of games in Europe during FIFA dates that MLS doesn't fully stop for. With the limited number of quality veteran players who are Euro-based, it becomes necessary to call up unproven players also.
     
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  13. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I get your logic but the media portray it as Green over Donovan. Unproven German over greatest American ever. Did it at the time and to this day. I heard several talk about the goal against France as scored by the kid that took Donovan's place. Dumb, no doubt.
     
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  14. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  15. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
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  16. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    Unfortunately, there is enough "smoke" there that every time we see crap like that we now assume there is a forest fire going on.

    And again, unfortunately, there prolly IS. Or....the so called "journalists" are just that incompetent.

    Either way it is a disaster for soccer journalism in this country.

    Give me the excesses of the Sun, the Star, the Moon, the Planets, The Mail....anything cause at least there is such a range of opinion on display it is entertaining.
     
  17. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    #517 juveeer, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    This is an important point.

    With our talent pool using 3 in the back makes sense. We have a surplus of decent to good CBs both in the older ranks and the youth. We have a dearth of true FBs at any age group. We DO have several who can play as wingbacks, which would include Yedlin, Moore, and our new LB. You can also slide a winger into that spot if necessary as long as he is willing to work on the defensive end.

    What struck me most against France was the way this group of youngsters was able to play that formation from a tactical POV MUCH BETTER than the older group was able to do against Mexico. This shows a tactical flexibility and improved grasp of tactics that our older group simply did not show.

    Love him or hate him, JK had the correct tactical decision against Mexico, but the team could not (or would not) implement that tactics properly.

    THIS group was able to slide right into that and work it against one of the favorites to WIN the World Cup with pretty much their full strength side on the field.

    That alone was impressive and gives me a lot of optimism going forward that if we DO bring in a top coach that this group, and hopefully the kids coming up behind them, will be able to implement a solid tactical game plan going forward.

    Lack of tactical ability and awareness has long been a problem for USS. For the first time since maybe the Bora era (where he drilled his tactics in over and over) we have a group that looks like it can approach a Euro team's ability in this area.
     
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  18. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    Hate to bring it up again but on the Wood "dribble", there was nothing wrong at all in his initial decision to dribble out of the back. This did what it is supposed to do - stretch the defense and force it back which allows support some space to appear.

    That worked.

    The problem was he did not then take the clear lay-off that his movement created, which is what he should have done, and if he was a more intelligent player he would have recognized.

    Now there are players that can make that dribble and beat the 3 defenders and they are off to the races if they can. Wood is generally not one of them. He might, 1 out of 20, pull that off, but he needs to learn what to do with that ball once he creates the space with his initial dribble.

    the question is, is this something he CAN learn at this stage of his development? I am not so sure.

    His coaches need to show him that clip over and over and drill it into his head.
     
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  19. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, should we retroactively raise Antonee Robinson's grade a point or two after watching Mbappé absolutely destroy Argentina's left side?
     
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  20. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    No, Parker's

    Actually Robinson was so exhausted he declined to cover the French rb who sent the pass in to Mbappe for the tying goal. Had he been able to cover the French rb, we would have won 1-0. I would not play Robinson in a game that counts unless he can demonstrate he was raised his stamina to the level required to play at international level. Playing France is not the equivalent of playing your average Championship side.
     
  21. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT

    It was a friendly.
     
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  22. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know, it was half tongue-in-cheek. Although I do like Robinson.
     
  23. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT

    So do I, and many here. Love to see him play in a better league.
     
  24. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Corona absolutely loses his man in the center. Robinson steps to him to cover. Can't worry about the RB and leave a guy unmarked at the top of your box with the ball. Didn't see anything in there that showed he was lazy or tired. Just put in a terrible spot by Corona, Sarachan's veteran see out the win, sub. Not sure why you need to libel a player.
     
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  25. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    he hasnt been good at all in mls.....
     
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