Post-match: USA v Colombia

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He went to Germany after college before being lured back when MLS started in 1996. He went on loans to PNE and Everton before making his full time move to Fulham. I don't see why a player. Ouldnt followthat path today and more realistically, the player could skip college and would only return if he didnt succeed. I wager to guess that McBride would have been much further along at 24 had he gone at 18, instead of 22. The key point about McBride is that he continually pushed himself to be his best and took the logical opportunities that presented themselves to him at that time.

    In 1994, McBride left the United States to ply his trade in Germany.[12] At the time, VfL Wolfsburg played in the German Second Division and provided several aspiring American players an opportunity to play soccer in Europe. These included Chad Deering, Claudio Reyna and Mike Lapper, as well as McBride. McBride struggled to find playing time with the club and also had difficulty scoring. However, one of his two goals came in a 2–1 victory over Bayern Munich's reserve team in the DFB-Pokal quarterfinals – Wolfsburg would go on to reach the final, although McBride did not feature. At the end of the season, McBride gained a release from Wolfsburg and when MLS was created, chose to return to play in the United States.
     
    Namdynamo repped this.
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Re McBride in Germany, worth pointing out that he graduated 1993 and 1996 was the first MLS season; and that at that point you were basically making a decision between minor league pre MLS A League/indoor domestic salaries (<$30k), playing in Mexico, or trying to break into Europe even though they were pretty biased against us. So there are a ton of players, even into the first MLS years, Twellman, Landon, even as late as Landon, who'd do an initial year or two over there and then do a u-turn back to MLS where you would get a fair shake.

    I think today he'd get a fairer shake abroad but I also think he'd have MLS to weigh to begin with.

    But I also think in the modern game, not unlike stupid coaches who want slicker backs, he would be given less time to develop as a target player, and would probably be encouraged in other directions of his game. It took Brian Ching until he was 26 or so to find his feet as a target man on a first division team. We tend to be more cutthroat about careers than that would allow.
     
  3. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Even though your core premise doesn't have all that much to do with your list, I really want to quibble with it anyway, because maybe a third of the guys you mention as being on it I really don't believe ought to be on it. These guys I'm talking about are those that aren't good enough to be solid, must-pick options going forward, but they're still rightfully in consideration to plug a hole and hep get a result if we need them, at least for the foreseeable future. Guys like Ream (more likely as LB cover than CB cover), Nagbe, Williams, Sapong, and Dwyer are still players that could be reasonably called up and played heading into the Gold Cup, probably especially Dom Dwyer, who I think should have a very reasonable chance to feature in our weak forward pool, particularly in CONCACAF dogfights. None of these guys are compelling players, and there are reasons why we favor other players over them, it's premature to categorically count them out.
     
    adam tash repped this.
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #354 juvechelsea, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    AJ is a forgotten man. Out of sight, out of mind. When people were giving me "ok fine who else would you call" rebuffs he was one of my list. Mostly kids but he was a rare prime age player who due to injuries should have been core in the last cycle, but wasn't. He was very technical and a good finisher, which was a unique skill set for a US forward, and he's only 27. The questions would be health (is he an O'Brien/Holden) and what's left after the injuries. Charlie Davies was never the same. Soccer can be cruel.

    You could cold call him like Horvath but the other issue right now would be he's sitting for Werder. I think he needs the heck out of dodge if he has domestic aspirations. If he continues to follow snob instructions and chase B.1 I think he's done for both. Why not come play MLS? Or Holland.

    So who knows if he's sharp and healthy but to me what this team sometimes needs is a bit of finesse and technical precision to balance the power and athleticism. But if he doesn't work I think Sargent will be that kind of player soon.

    Mixx, I always wanted some of our guys to try Japan, Korea, Australia. But I thought the quasi-Traffic Man City asset purchase was basically his severance check with USSF and real ambition. That got him out of NYC and that problem but now he's basically itinerant. Bouncing around the world to random leagues at this stage in his career is not helpful.
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    So are we back to trying to win GC with 30 year olds instead of bringing along the players who we actually need to qualify with? There is this continuing confusion at USSF about "playing to win" with players who then don't actually do it. We played to win GC 15 and exited 4th. We played to win the playoff Mexico game, lost. We played to win Copa America, 4th. The bunch pursued qualifying and finished 5th. I could understand this urge to try to win with them if they'd done it lately.

    So I want to see if this younger bunch can stand on their own two feet instead. I am open to what I'd term the "Batphone" or the "Bat-spotlight." Beasley and other players past their prime and probably too old have been recalled later into cycles after we gave the new core its chance, and figured out there was a specific hole to fill that we had run out of ideas how to do so. That I could understand. But giving up in fall 2018 for a 2022 tournament and bringing back a bunch of 30+ players to chase the Gold Cup, knowing they like Jones and Beckerman odds are can't make 4 years? And we pretend like they did any good last GC? Nagbe has like a goal in his international career and is not a defensive terrier. Williams had some nightmares. Sapong and Dwyer? Do we not recall how GC 17 went, ie, the disappearing group stage offense?

    Last point, I think none of these players (including Bradley) deserve incumbency, which I see as a further facet of the discussion. This is not a qualifier team. Many players looked poor. No one but Steffen and Pulisic should be comfortable that if they are called their role is to start. Everyone should have to come in, practice hard, play well. If Nagbe or Bradley earn a 15 minute sub role in games where their skill set seems fitting, that's what you get. My fear is that these players' egos get stroked, or the coaches live in nostalgia, and they are not here for the time they deserve, but rather for us to pretend it's 2010 and start them and play them 90, even if they walk after their men. To tie that anvil around the ankles of a bunch of exciting prospects is obnoxious. So anyone brought in from that set should have to outplay more youthful options and earn their PT, and accept whatever role they get. If your ego can't handle a bench leadership role or 10 minutes to finish a result, eff back off to Toronto. And to me the more we replicate the 2018 team the more likely we are to repeat old results.
     
    adam tash repped this.
  6. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    From what I've seen of McKennie, he appears to break easily when getting physical on defense. Adams has looked great in a role where he can do as he pleases. Let's see how he does with a real job when he gets to BL. I have both in my starting xi but they wont get it done in cmid by themselves, in their present state of development. We've already seen that it was hard to get good value for McKennie when he played with Adams in friendlies. Sarachan has studiously avoided playing Delgado, Roldan, Parks, Morales. I never had Green, Acosta, Saief, in any lineups. I never expected them to compare favorably so I learned nothing.
     
  7. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Like MP9 famously said, "mark my words, Zardes is the next Dempsey".
     
  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You keep saying this but refuse to answer the question: who are these players who went to Europe that would be significantly better if they had stayed in the US for their career? Staying at home would make our USMNT better?

    Is that your assertion on Hydman, as I believe you admire his skill set?
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I don't need to know the precise tactics. James is on the edge of the 18. The danger is inherent. if you can't improvise a little there, are you the player I need. Saief is pinned wrong side of the man. I don't think it's his guy, but from a team breakdown perspective, he's the guy closest to the man who gets a body on him. He doesn't fight to get ball side, yank a shirt, put the guy on the ground. The guy turns off him, no hold, sets up, shot, goal. Everyone gives him space and time, no one hits him.

    Personally I thought it was jacked up Saief having to run all over the place as tactics. I want to see him in some normal role under a coach not named Dave, before I pronounce upon him. But I thought letting a player that dangerous turn off you without putting them on the ground for a card was a tad soft. I don't think anyone on that play committed some horrifying gaffe, but it's like I am looking for any one of them, if they want to be the future core of the team, to come in and end the play with James trapped back to goal and frantically turning. First rule of defending is no turn. And then I want to see people on top of that danger and clattering it before it can get worse. I am sure that sounds brutish to the snobs but I think we confuse how good offense gets done and how good defense gets done.
     
  10. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    This is a false dichotomy. Some of the players you'd listed are young enough to make it to the World Cup. They're not AGED out. None of them are great, so I don't really expect them to be among the best 23 in 2022 (if one does make it, it'll most likely be Dwyer, IMO). But some of those guys who will be are not good enough now. We're looking strongly toward the future, but that doesn't mean that we have to strictly play a U23 team all cycle long.
     
  11. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously, Green has been a professional playing against other professionals for about 2-3 seasons. Of he makes it onto a Bundesliga squad in the next 3-4 years, he'll have surpassed both Nguyen and Feilhaber in club career (obviously, I don't count his BMU time as true B1 experience).

    And if you can't see that Green has improved from his WC goal to now, I'm not sure you've been watching.
     
    orcrist repped this.
  12. 70runner

    70runner Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    When the game demands serious backpassing, then by all means get Bradley in there...
     
    Winoman repped this.
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Why do you think clubs have technical directors, youth coaches, and scouts?

    You have:

    a - the player himself should be aware of his level, not feel himself pushed into going and play a game of chance he has nearly no option to win;

    b - the club that owns his rights, they have a good idea of his potential and should advise him properly;

    c - the player's representative, who can compare the offers made and pick the one that suits him better for his development, not the big name or use the American player as a collateral package;

    d - the club that wants to get the guy --if they only want him on a free, you can bet they don't see much value in him and are just looking for another warm body for their reserves or worse.

    It's not rocket science. A young player has a choice to make, and should make it without hearing the constant, stupid fan pressure to "go to Europe no matter what," even if it's signing a crap contract with one of the giant clubs that has no intention to ever play him.

    We're pushing them to failure, and are starting to pay for it.
     
    deejay repped this.
  14. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saief hasn't played close to a full 90 this season, so I don't think he's really fit for international starter duty. Maybe you can give him 15-20 minutes as a sub, but he's not a starter atm.

    And with Sarachan, you can be sure that he won't get better defensively.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    You're missing my point. A kid's army is what's left to run out.

    Already fell off and no longer worthy:
    Howard, 39 -> 43 ("past it")
    Cameron, 33 -> 37 ("past it")
    Beasley, 36 -> 40 ("past it")
    Zusi. 32 -> 36 ("past it")
    Bradley (should be), 31 -> 35 ("past it")
    Bedoya, 31 -> 35 ("past it")

    Weren't that great to begin with, but were at least semi world class:
    Ream, 31 -> 35 ("meh")
    Guzan (should be), 34 -> 38 ("meh")
    Corona, 28 -> 32 ("meh")
    Nagbe, 28 ->32 ("meh")

    Not at the level:
    Morrow, 31 -> 35 ("never was")
    Williams. 29 -> 33 ("never was")
    Sapong, 29 -> 33 ("never was")
    Dwyer, 28 -> 32 ('never was")
    Villafana, 29 -> 33 ("never was")
    Omar, 30 -> 34 ("vastly overrated")

    Opara, 29 -> 33 ("never given chance too late now")
    Dempsey, retired ("done")

    I think some of your theory overrates people who never showed they could play at a serious, Hex qualifier kind of level, and I think some of it nostalgically holds on to players who could play that level but no more, or whose very mediocrity helps explain why we didn't even make it.

    I realize that at 28 or 29 some of them could contribute, and some might be bench players or borderline starters, but they become a ticking age bomb inside an otherwise young team, and few of them are any good where it's like, let's do that on purpose. Like I said, tell them we'll do the bat signal if we really need them. But for about anyone on this list I can think of a younger analogue who is at least as meh and not as old.

    I don't see the point in having them involved to begin with, and they are a phone call away if the newer end of the pool turns out disastrous. But I think I can already see more upside in a McKennie than in bringing Nagbe back. I think some people miss how mediocre and unproductive some of these players have been.
     
    orcrist repped this.
  16. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #366 juvechelsea, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    Let me put this differently. I feel like the privilege of playing til you're 32 or so (or til close to 40 for keepers), and being built into the fabric, is something earned by being essential for years. Howard, Dempsey, earned that risk. You're acting like every duffer on the roster earns that kind of tenure and one could argue that to the extent Klinsi and Arena handled the last cycle with that kind of broad age friendly policy to even the less crucial starters, it was a mistake.

    I don't like a Claudio Reyna in Germany scenario but if it's going to be an old fart blowing up it's going to be someone who earned it like him. I don't see the point in staking our team to Nagbe and Guzan and the Generation That Couldn't Qualify. How did they earn tenure.

    Nagbe, this year: 0G 3A.
    Bradley, 0G 4A.
    Williams, 1 cup appearance for Huddersfield.
    Acosta, traded, 2G 2A.

    to add one more:
    Horvath, 1 appearance, 2 GA.

    What basis other than a pecking order obsession/nostalgia is there for treating these people like they earned the team. These were the next men up 2-3 years ago. They all kind of went to heck, the team missed the WC, and now we're acting like nothing happened.
     
    Zinkoff repped this.
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Not only Hyndman, but guys like Kitchen, who had no business going to Europe. Or Canouse, who wasted years there. From the previous generation, Zak Whitbread, who signed for Liverpool, never played for them, and spent a long time playing an average of 10 games per season in the lower English leagues, and it's been two years the guy is living from his savings.

    You have guys like Lletget, who wasted precious development years barely playing for the West Ham reserves. Or right now CCV & EPB, languishing on the bench at 20/21, years that should be fundamental in their development. You got Juan Agudelo who heard the siren chant and wasted over a year bouncing around.

    What did a guy who should have stayed, like Brek Shea, accomplish going to England? 18 months to play a dozen Championship games. And he's one of the few that actually cost the Euro team some money, although 2.7m pounds is change for Stoke.

    Look at how many young guys we have going on a free! Are you so naive to think the clubs there have a big interest in foreign young players who arrive on a free transfer? Heck, even if they go to Academies, it wouldn't be so terrible so far they're given at least a path to eventually play for the club that got them.

    Keaton Parks, another guy who has (had?) potential to be a creative force, and we need those desperately, went to Varzim on a free. See how that ended: Parks suing them for "just cause" (he got paid late, when he got paid, and the club was actively interfering with his development, trying to sell him to an ally club and keeping him benched so other bigger clubs didn't go after him). Varzim sued him back, and all the legal trouble only ended in August last year.

    What need is there for a young player to waste precious time with legal crap? But that happens when clubs get them far too young on a free: no respect. And we keep pushing that.

    Of course MLS also is at fault, for doing such a lousy job at scouting talent. Parks himself would have gone the college route had he stayed, because no one in the pro league had shown enough interest.
     
  18. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    That's what grinds my gears about wasting that extra year we had. With an actual coach, we needed to find the young talent that could help us this cycle. Playing the coach's system, the one we'd be using for qualifying.

    Any help we get this cycle is not going to come from the older guys, but from the younger ones, some of them may not even have been "discovered" yet.

    But we've wasted over a year right in the middle of a generational change. How stupid.
     
  19. kingshark

    kingshark Member

    Mar 3, 2006
    #369 kingshark, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    btw, I watched Japan vs Uruguay and really impressed by Japan. Are we less talented than Japanese?
     
  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Suyuntuy,

    I won't argue that your list of players isn't a list of European washouts - my point is that they wouldn't be any better and in fact would likely be worse, if they had stayed domestic. MLS has never created a world class player - never. The odds are shitty at all the major league academies but they literally infinitely better than staying domestic (where according to history, the odds are nil; cue, ClintE pontificating about how MLS is young, etc.)

    Going to Europe is high beta - we could have smash homeruns like CP, WM, etc. but there's a lot of frogs to kiss and carcasses by the roadside.

    Question: how much better would Hyndman be if he stayed in MLS? So much better than he has a better chance of making a UCL semis team?
     
    Namdynamo and Patrick167 repped this.
  21. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    To play on a BL team doesn't mean shit. Otherwise we would have had 23 players better than Donovan. If there is any improvement in the last 4 years it's very marginal and I don't anticipate any breakthrough from him all of a sudden. He is what he is.
     
    ussoccer97531 repped this.
  22. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Depends on what you call "talented". They are better players.
     
  23. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Of course MLS was not going to turn Brek Shea into Ronaldo. But at least has made of him a player that has his uses, better than sitting on some bench in League One, that's where he'd be now had he stayed in England.

    Hyndman playing regularly in MLS, without wasting months playing nowhere, would be a decent guy to have in the coming Gold Cup squad, IMO.

    I'm not saying that staying will turn decent guys into world class, but that leaving under lousy contract conditions turns them into garbage.
     
  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Japan's passing is very smooth, better than anything you see in CONCACAF. Guess all those years of Brazilian coaching are finally paying for them.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I don't think it makes much difference for the USMNT where Brek Shea and Hyndman play ball (unless Hyndman breaks out and become a major leaguer). If their ceiling is Championship/MLS/B2 (which it appears to be), we have enough depth there already and there's no way that staying in a nascent league with no history of developing world-class players is going to make a true impact on our team. In other words, we have more than enough Brek Shea at his peak level players for a very good coach to make it through the Hex and, assuming we play a tight defensive game, scare good teams at the WC.
     

Share This Page