USA:BRA WWC Semifinal [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Ref Flunkie, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    I guess we may as well talk about this match (even though I'm only watching it because I'm on the west coast and can't sleep). Just saw the RC to Boxx. Awful, awful call by our Swiss Miss. You would think with all the communication devices, they could have worked this one out, but perhaps it was just one of those situations where everyone was looking somewhere else and the CR had to guess at what happened. Other then that I think our CR has done a good job managing the match...she kinda has that Collina stare thing going on when players start to get out of line. Unfortunately, her tournament will likely be remembered by this major mistake.
     
  2. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I'm at work and haven't seen it, yet. That said - according to match cast this was only her 3rd foul, so it probably wasn't a PI.

    Is there a clip somewhere that I can see it?
     
  3. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Probably not a clip yet, but I'll describe it.

    She got one yellow previously and I believe it was a good yellow in the context of the game.

    The second yellow came off the ball. Brazil was attacking near the middle of the field, and I believe our CR was watching that. Off to the left wing, Boxx was in front of the Brazil attacker, running forward, not turning her head in any way. The Brazilian attacker then trips (either over herself or over the BACK of Boxx's feet) and they both tumble down). One could almost argue that Boxx was the one that was fouled. CR stops play, goes over and within 1-2 seconds has made her decision to issue the send off. I did not see much in the way of communication between the referee team, and it looked like the CR made her decision right away (even though I'm not sure how she could have seen the play actually happen). This did occur in the CR's quadrant, so the other official with the best view of the "foul" would been the 4th. However, I have no idea if she was watching that region or not at the time of the play. I'm sure a clip will be posted at some point.
     
  4. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    Shockingly bad call. Unbelievable. The most unjustified sendoff I ever remember seeing on TV. I haven't come up with many theories of what the referee THOUGHT she saw -- probably thought Boxx tactically fouled the Brazilian player to prevent her from running through to a promising position to receive a pass on this attack -- somewhat of a 'midfield tactical foul.' ref flunkie described it pretty well already.

    The whole game can be viewed at www.espn360.com. You may need to install a small plug-in for their video player. Actually, once the game was over, the live feed was not available. The game is not yet showing up in the Replay list. Hopefully it will be there soon.
     
  5. SamGamgee

    SamGamgee New Member

    Oct 21, 2005
    I believe that the Brazillian atkr ran into the back of Boxx causing her, Boxx, to fall. Atkr was leaning forward enough that when contact occurred it caused her to loose balance thus falling. Foul occurred in CR's quadrant thus most likely not getting feedback from either AR.
     
  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Awful decision from an otherwise solid referee. I was very disappointed to see it.
     
  7. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    Yeah too far on the other side for the lead AR to see. Trail AR and 4th had shots, but for them, I think it is simply lucky if they happened to be looking at the right place at the right time. I don't see how you can give a second yellow unless you are SURE of what you saw.
     
  8. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    The replay is available now on espn360.com. Go to 48:15 (of the replay, not 48 minutes 15 seconds into the match) for the beginning of the Brazil counterattack. The sendoff is a few seconds later. The sendoff is in the 45+1 minute.
     
  9. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    I apologize for having to get on my soap box again, but the fact that this call was not reviewable is reprehensible and an abomination to the sport of soccer.

    I don't think it would have made any difference to the final outcome, but it could have. There is also a possibility that Christiane intentionally drew the foul by running over the back of Boxx's leg, but this is unclear.

    On the Whiltehill foul on Christiane at 4:00 that was not called in the box, it looked like Whitehill got a solid foot to the ball, so that it was a good non-call. In reality, she barely deflected it onto the foot of Christiane who knocked it ahead, and then got another touch on top of the ball that made it skip up a bit. Depending on what the referee sees, a PK might have been awarded there, and the play should have been reviewable had a PK been called.
     
  10. newsocdad

    newsocdad New Member

    Nov 8, 2004
    One interesting thing is that I did not see alot of protest for the call. No on-field arguing really, and apparently not enough coach arguing to attract a camera shot which would typically be the case. That should be a good lesson for kids, parents and coaches. Bad calls happen, and this was a terrible one in an important game.

    I would think before issuing a second yellow there would at least be some quick communication between the officials to confirm it was warranted. There would not seem to be a need to rush the issuance of a card rather than get a verbal check from the other officials which presumably would take 20 seconds or so. At that point play was stopped and both players were on the ground.
     
  11. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. The referee certainly seemed sure of herself in handing out the second yellow so quickly considering that if she had actually seen it, she would have known it was an accidental collision and certainly not caused by Boxx.

    Poor, poor decision. Poor in a rec league game, catastrophic in a World Cup semifinal.

    I'm sure the referee will get a look at it and realize she made a mistake. Hoping FIFA has something to say about it.
     
  12. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    New Hudson, MI
    And again I will disagree with you. Please name me another sport that reviews judgement calls of an official when it comes to "foul" calls. I will go with you when it comes to reviewing goals going in or out, or MAYBE even if a foul was inside or outside the PA, but I will argue until the cows come home against reviewing an officials foul calls.
     
  13. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    It was good to see such a high level of acceptance which was not surprising since this was a women's match. Actually I feel that the US players and/or coach should have made SOMEWHAT of a stink about this call. You need the referee to be aware that you feel she just screwed your team royally. No need to get abusive or carry on about it for the rest of the game, but make your point very clearly. Looking just at what we could see on the TV, there wasn't any of this.

    If the referee feels he/she had a good look at an incident and is going to take important action, it looks bad to go over and conference with the AR or 4th. If you need help with a call, by all means seek help from the rest of your crew. But if you are pretty near play and there's no doubt in your mind as to what happened, do NOT go over for a 2nd opinion. Make your decision on your own.

    With the benefit of the communication system, the ARs or 4th conceivably could have told the ref she had gotten it all wrong, but she showed the yellow card pretty promptly so it would have been tough to get the opinion to the referee before she showed the card. Once the card comes out, it is not likely to be rescinded even though the ref technically can do so as long as play has not been restarted.
     
  14. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    Please name another sport that gives the referee the power to reduce the number of players that a team is allowed to field for the remainder of a contest. Please name another sport where one foul call (in the penalty area) can have such a dramatic affect on the game.
     
  15. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why? What good does it do you as the coach or player? The referee cannot and will not change the call. All you'll accomplish is getting yourself on the referee's mental watch list. The only thing you can hope to gain in a situation like this is that the referee will review the call, see they made a mistake and learn from it. To get that to happen you approach the competition authority (in this case FIFA) and make sure THEY know you're not happy with the call and why. The only reason to let the referee know is self gratification and that's pretty much pointless.

    I also question if the bench even saw what occured. Perhaps there was no major uproar because they didn't see it either. I mean we're excusing everyone else on the pitch from having seen this occur, what makes you so sure that anyone, other than Boxx and the player that tripped over her, really even knew what happened.

    As to the referee seeing this incident, I'm again not clear why everyone thinks there's no way she saw it. From the angle she comes in, the incident would have taken place in her path of vision, the ball was only away for a few seconds. I think the problem is she missed who ran in front of who.

    Finally, and I know this is a pipe dream at the rec level let alone the international showcase, but if "Fair Play" and sportsmanship were really a part of the game and supported by the players, shouldn't the Brazilian player be getting up and letting the referee know what really happened??? Ahh if only we lived in utopia huh?
     
  16. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I don't agree with the decsion - such is life.

    The referee should have waited for the defender to stand up before sending her off. It looked almost as though the referee was saying "I got you now!" with her body language. I know that is absolutely not the case, but that is why she should have waited.

    Too bad for the USA, they probably didn't deserve to play with 10 after that, but it was the referee's opinion. Though, I think they were beaten fair and square today anyhow.
     
  17. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    It almost sounds like you are kidding?! How can you be that naieve? Have you ever played soccer? Heck, even if you haven't you should know how it makes you feel as a referee when someone questions one of your decisions.

    By not saying ANYTHING, the US team allows the referee to feel that she got the call right. Especially on a key decision, you want to let the referee know you feel she got it wrong and that your team was wronged. Plant that seed of doubt. It will be in the back of her mind. You never know how it might impact other decisions during the rest of the match.

    Are you actually claiming that ALL complaining by players in ALL soccer games NEVER does any good for the complaining team?
     
  18. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    To be clear, I feel this incident had little to no effect on the outcome of the match. The US was outplayed by a better team comprised of better players and by the time Boxx was sent off the match was pretty much over already at 2-0. I could tell in the 1st 5 minutes of the game that Brazil would probably win and that the US would have a lot of trouble doing anything offensively because of the Brazilians' ability to play at a quicker pace (not how fast they were, but how fast they can play), better athletic ability, better technical ability, etc.
     
  19. newsocdad

    newsocdad New Member

    Nov 8, 2004
    I think the difficulty comes in that the communication system seems to have failed its essential purpose. It is difficult to watch the tape of the incident and envision an angle or position of the CR from which you could say -- well she just misjudged the relative position of the players. Why wear the mics and headphones if you are not going to use them in that situation?

    As for arguing the call, I would assume that the bench saw the replay within moments, and knew it was a terrible call. The question then becomes whether you can get a "make-up" call in that level of game.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To echo what bluedevils is saying, Paul Tamberino wrote a great article awhile ago for Fair Play (when he was still officiating) about how not all talking/complaining from players is "dissent" and how good referees must be able to recognize legitimate complaints in order to better manage high-level and potentially volatile matches. If I remember correctly, he talked specifically about how you can use some dissent to ask questions, quell tempers, and even gain valuable information.*

    In this case, should the US players have been in Petignat's face swearing at her? No. But one or two players should have been there letting her know, in no uncertain terms, that they felt she missed the call.

    Then again, since this was off-the-ball, it's possible that the other American players didn't have a clue what happened and Boxx didn't exactly get up to protest vehemently.

    *(a classic example is that when a player yells at you to "watch #10!" or that "#15 is pushing me!" you can come back with questions that show you care, can calm the player AND can help you stamp out misconduct.... like "what should I be watching for?" in the first instance or "before the corner's taken or once it's in the air?" in the second... it does a lot more than just saying "yeah, I'll watch it" or, even worse, just dismissing what might be legitimate complaints)
     
  21. falcon.7

    falcon.7 New Member

    Feb 19, 2007
    You're not supposed to get make-up calls in any level of game. You can find ways to level out fouls somewhatso it doesn't look like you're favoring one team, but a send-off? I'd enjoy seeing that one. When you make a mistake like that, your focus should not be evening it out so at the end of the day you can say "well it was even so I did a good job", it's getting the next calls right so you can say "well, I screwed the pooch on that one but I recovered and the rest of the game was good".
     
  22. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    That is true, but sometimes a thought in the back of the referee's mind can sway a borderline decision one way or the other. It happens. Human nature. It cannot be avoided.
     
  23. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If there aren't enough competent female referees to do these WC games, then they need to use men. This ref was poor in the previous game. She may be experienced, but she's not good. Experienced at being poor doesn't cut it. Use a male ref if you have to BUT don't give a poor ref such an important game to completely cock up. She didn't see the play on the red card. She made a wild guess. Making a wild guess in a game like this can have no excuse offered up for it.
     
  24. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be clear here, I'm not ignoring the role that dissent plays in game management nor how it can be a usefule tool. Re-read my post, I'm speaking of this specific incident. This was not a case where players were getting away with stuff the referee was missing or the referee was calling a game too tight or too loose. This was an isolated incident that brought out a caution and a yellow card (and the subsequent red since it was a second caution). I'll ask again, what are you going to gain by dissenting here. Is the referee suddenly going to be slower to card? Very unlikely. Do you really want the referee, in a WC match running around with doubts in her head? Now when one of your team is fouled she's second guessing herself? This is not a case where the dissent buys you anything.

    Bluedevil, as for your insinuation that I am ignorant to the game of soccer, I have a few choice words for you on that. I played soccer for 11 years before becoming a referee and I take your post as incredibly insulting.

    "Are you actually claiming that ALL complaining by players in ALL soccer games NEVER does any good for the complaining team? " When the hell did I ever say all gams, all complaing or ALL anything? I said and I quote: "in a situation like this". If insults are going to start flying, maybe some discussion on literacy is in order.
     

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