US women soccer players want equal pay to US men's team.

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by SUDano, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
  2. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The nerve of them!

    It's probably, from the standpoint of the law, a landmark case and a fantastic debate. From the standpoint of US Soccer, I can imagine that they will argue that this is not a case of paying two people who are doing the same job a differing wage, but rather two different jobs. I don't think this is an employment issue as much as an entertainment issue, in terms of what type of case law the lawyers for arguing their side. The lawyers for the WNT will argue the other way, that this is clearly a discriminatory practice. It's not at all straightforward, and will be a very interesting debate.
     
  3. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aren't their payouts set by their collective bargaining agreements? Honest question. I'm confused why this is being tackled in a lawsuit as opposed to during negotiations.
     
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  4. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is really a minefield with good points to be made in favor of both sides and it will be fascinating. I really do wish the US Soccer community's constant use of courts over these sorts of fights could be avoided though. That's really a bigger issue than this, but its disappointing.
     
  5. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they want to open the books to see how much revenue the women bring in vs the men.
     
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  6. UnitedBorn

    UnitedBorn Member+

    Dec 7, 2015
    301
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think the pay should be equal since I'm sure the mens team brings in more revenue. If the numbers in the article are accurate, the women should be getting paid more though.
     
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  7. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    Whether they win or not, I hope they get the books opened so we can see where all the money goes. The top of USSF is dominated by men. Let's have some transparency.
     
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  8. Unimane

    Unimane Member+

    Jul 28, 2009
    Nashville
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The hard part to quantify is the relative success of the women's team vs. the men's. Americans like a winner and much of the women's appeal is that they win. Of course, winning for them is much different, as, even in the World Cup, they can face sides that are, essentially, amateur and have a country with a far greater investment in them than every other country in the world. The men have no such benefit and operate in, arguably, the most competitive sports environment on earth. So, the women play a significantly smaller pool of challengers, achieve greater success as a result and Americans become drawn to this success every 4 years (2, if you want to throw in the Olympics).
     
  9. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    It's already open, and the women drew $51M and the Men $60M. That is obviously much closer to 50/50 than 25/75.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/03/31/five-u-s-womens-soccer-players-file-wage-discrimination-complaint/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_soccer-918am:homepage/story


     
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  10. loganm

    loganm Member

    Mar 31, 2016
    The women's program also gets a fraction of the financial support

    715544898326433792 is not a valid tweet id
     
  11. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    Pl@ymaker repped this.
  12. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    SUM Cabal Executive Director
    Jan 9, 2004
    3 blocks from "SoccerHouse", Chicago
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Yes, but Herzog has been worth every penny of that salary!!! There are big clubs after him. Big clubs!
     
  13. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Campania
    How comparable is this case, for example, to women golfers earning less prize money than men on the PGA tour?

    Obviously it's a greater disparity in that sport. But when it comes to the men drawing more viewers and sponsors?
     
  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I wonder what the average salary of a women's world cup coach is..............................................
    If Jill Ellis wasn't the highest paid, she must have been way up there.

    I'm in full support of the women getting equal pay for the men as far as national team appearances go.

    Obviously the wage disparity between the men's and women's teams comes about from the global marketplace. I imagine the financial compensation that the US women get from the federation just about crushes what the female players get around the world. Anybody else remember the T&T women's team in Dallas asking for food donations? They got zero support.

    The MAXIMUM salary of a women's player in the NWSL last year was $37.8k, by the way. So the USWNT players really can use the money they get from USWNT matches and competitions. The "average" player in that league is basically playing for the love of the game.................................they can't make a living on that alone. The salary cap in the NWSL is ~250k.

    http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/nwsl-players-chasing-the-dream/
     
  15. CMeszt

    CMeszt Member+

    SUM Cabal Executive Director
    Jan 9, 2004
    3 blocks from "SoccerHouse", Chicago
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    The question though is how does that pay break down? Are we talking per-game compensation or an overall pool of cash to be dished out for national teams appearances and camps? WNT generates a lot of revenue but they also seem to play a match every other weekend when compared to the men.
     
  16. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this a a very simplistic way to look at this. The WNT and most of its players have a great deal of commercial appeal and that is value well beyond gross revenue alone. The world cup payouts between the men and women are also significantly different so its not really fair for that to be the only metric. I also think there's very very strong PR argument and public support for pay equity.

    Beyond that its a complex one. First, if you look at the way professional women's soccer works, there is basically one full-fledged full time professional women's team in the country, the WNT. What's interesting about that is once a player is in that group, she has a lot to lose if she's dropped because there really isn't a competing entity that can pick that player up. There's also a lot to gain by a player in joining that group because comparatively speaking, its lucrative. The players themselves have an interest not just in getting the most pay possible, but in making it very difficult to both enter and be kicked out of this group.

    Because there are not other professional options, the USSF holds an inordinate amount of power here. It also could suggest that pay parity with the men may be a bit of a reach because their male counterpart have another means of soccer income and can command more because of what they can make outside the national team. Forgetting the patriotism for a second, there has to be some added inducement to get guys making million or more to moonlight during an offseason with the national team. Granted, there is a increase in market value and reach associated with being an international due to the exposure, but its also difficult if you're based in Europe to take 6+ hour flights for a week with the national team, especially when there is pressure from you club. If you're making 30-40k a week, and not too many are just an example, are you getting on the plane for what the women have been paid? Its easier, I would content, for the average male player to withhold his services citing compensation because he has another source of soccer income. That likely isn't true for the top women, which is unfortunate. All of the women making the complaint could certainly command a strong income outside the national team, but it would not be likely to be as soccer players. That means those players are essentially fighting a single payer for their services holding down what they might make if there was a competitor. On the flip side it means that there might not be a lot of demand for what they do, but I think expanding that idea will automatically get you branded a sexist. That's unfortunate because then you can't have a conversation about how to actually get to a point where, instead of talking about what the 23 or so players on the national team are making, we are discussion how to make it possible for 2-300 women to make a decent living playing professional soccer in a stable league.
     
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  17. Cool Hand Luke

    Cool Hand Luke Member+

    Aug 13, 2008
    Austin Texas
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It must have something to do with wanting a new deal before the Olympics right?
     
  18. Caulfield

    Caulfield Member

    May 31, 2004
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would guess that a lot of what the men get vs the women is determined by what FIFA or CONCACAF pays out for participation, advancing, and winning. I know the men(all countries) get far more from FIFA for making the World Cup, and that number goes up for advancing. Assuming the USSF just passes a percentage of that along to the players, thus the difference. The USSF is not a club team. This is an issue that really should be taken to FIFA(good luck).
     
  19. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If both the men and the women receive, say, $1k for an appearance and x% of $ from revenue related to their appearance, it would be less contentious maybe?

    But it sure seems that the women receive less per appearance to begin with, and they get no boost from revenue when it leans in their favor. Doubly cheated.
     
  20. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This one is a little tougher for me. Jill Ellis would certainly have some other options if the USSF let her go, but they would be limited compared to Andy Herzog given his background in the sheer number of opportunities that exist in the professional game. Now its perfectly valid to ask if pro teams are smart to ignore female coaches when they have openings, but Herzog played 103 times for his country, played professionally in three countries, and coached national teams in Austria and the US. It would not be difficult for him to get his current salary or more elsewhere. You legitimately have to ask, fair or not, if anyone else would pay Ellis $215k.
     
  21. Caulfield

    Caulfield Member

    May 31, 2004
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From a revenue perspective, it's a slam dunk case. My assumption is the USSF bases payment to players not on revenue, but on what their teams are paid the play games...be it FIFA, CONCACAF, or whomever is setting up the games.
     
  22. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    The one complicating factor is SUM and what they withhold as a 'managing fee' or whatever you want to call it as promotor, cheif muckety muck of almost all things major soccer in the US. They will contend they are owed money from that pool, not just what SUM pays US Soccer.

    I think they'll lose the suit but all of their pissing and moaning will lead to a much better collectively bargained contract the next time around.
     
  23. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Both. But the only numbers you will see will make it sound advantageous to their side.

    Their other option is not play those national team matches and concentrate on their club teams and make the big money. Oh wait.
     
  24. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing here is that the USSF runs THE club team for women. Clint Dempsey can quit the national team and still collect his millions from Seattle. If Alex Morgan quits the national team, then her only soccer opportunity left is a $38k salary in the NWSL or a higher salary in a job outside of soccer.
     
  25. Schadenfreuder

    Schadenfreuder New Member

    Mar 4, 2016
    Tampa / St. Pete FL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In my view, the Women have a solid case and should force a favorable settlement. We can afford to give our Men's and Women's National teams equal pay AND equal competition environments. The Hawai'i debacle was a disgrace, it embarrassed the USWNT, and it should've resulted in the resigning of Sunil Gulati. I have no idea how/why he's still the head of US Soccer at this point. The Men have underperformed and the Women have performed as expected. When do we hold the highest person in charge accountable?

    Also, this is a clear opportunity for the U.S. to show leadership on a global stage as if we asked to seek the books for Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Germany, England, and France, I suspect we'd see millions allocated to their mens teams and peanuts allocated to their womens teams.

    We can lead the change that's needed.

    The final fact -- more US soccer fans show up to see the USWNT play than the USMNT. The only reason why the Men make more is they can capitalize on the revenue from the opponent's fanbase. That shouldn't be used against the Women or to prop up the Men.
     
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