US vs. Brazil, Postgame Discussion

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by largegarlic, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. manfromgallifrey91

    Swansea City
    United States
    Jul 24, 2015
    Wyoming, USA
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The problem is he is known to be poor at this stage of his career. So why bring him back? I don't see him playing better or worse than Trapp, Mckinnie or Adams who are all much younger. So if we are going to get the same mistakes made, at least let it be in a learning experience and not with a guy who is past his prime and is in the twilight of his career.

    I get it, that he got a ton of crap because his was auto started when we really didn't have much else. But now, the criticism he is getting is almost all based on his play and how he has degraded as a player. I don't need to see Bradley at the national level again to know how bad he looks. He is too slow now, his jogging has even slowed to a crawl. He is caught way out of position, slow to react, struggles with pressure (and he is slower so teams will press him even more now), can hit a pass if given time but who will give him time? He is not a rah-rah guy, and not someone I see who will teach the younger players, so why bring him in?

    Now Jozy or Fabjo, sure I can see that they can offer something. Jozy needs to find his form and prove he can stay healthy and not pick up stupid cards.

    I don't think having Jozy out there in this game would have done anything more or less than Wood would have. But in a typical game with a different set up the argument can be made that he can be there. But Bradley, if it were 5 years ago sure, but what has he done recently to warrant that he would do anything significantly better than other players in the pool who are younger and can offer more in 2 years than he can?
     
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  2. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe. Really tough to analyze defenders on television, as you tend to only see their final decision, not the anticipation and reads that lead up to it. But overall, Miazga and Brooks at CB, and Steffen at GK look to be first-choice options. But you do have a point, perhaps I am taking that for granted.

    3 main things.

    1. I think Sarachan has decided on the 4-1-4-1 as a system and is forcing players into that system whether it amplifies their strengths or not. That is textbook 101 shitty coaching. Bobby Wood, for example, is a really good player when he has a striking partner to run off of, as we saw in the Copa Centenario. He is a miserable lone target forward. But because Sarachan is system-first, he is played as a lone target forward. Same is true of stupid moves like Weah out wide.

    2. Sarachan set up a 3/4 press, which teams do all the time. Suck the ball in, and pounce in the midfield, vs. having your forward line do 90 minutes of chasing. The problem is he coupled that press with a crazy high defensive line. So Brazilian defenders had plenty of time to find space and players to get in behind the US high line. See the first goal. People blamed Robinson and Miazga. Nope. That was 100% Sarachan. Brazilian CB plays an unpressured pass to Costa, who already has a running start on Robinson, and then Miazga is trying to make a play while sprinting back and tracking the ball. Just a bone-stupid setup.

    3. Zero movement or creativity in the central midfield. Sarachan complains about not being able to maintain possession, but possession requires movement. It requires passing options. The Trapp-Adams-McKennie midfield is redundant. Trapp is Michael Bradley 2.0. Cannot stop anything defensively, and his movement off the ball is crap. I have higher hopes for Adams and McKennie, but they both need to be in systems where they can move more and rotate in possession.
     
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  3. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't think this is a good description of what happened.

    That first play, he under-hit a pass. So what? Is he not the best passer on the team? Every player under-hits a pass from time to time. We both know that our passing would be worse with Adams or McKennie as the deep-lying CM.

    As for the second play, its worth mentioning that he was in a corner with 3-4 Brazil players surrounding him, and he initially got past a couple of them before the last one tackled the ball away. Those Brazil players are some of the best in the world. They should be taking the ball away from him when cornered by a number of them. That doesn't really say much about what he can or can't do. What we know is that he's a deep-lying #6. He's not the best box to box CM in the world. I think we all already knew that.

    As things currently stand, we don't have a better #6 than Trapp. McKennie and Adams don't have the discipline yet for the position. Adams is probably better off playing as a fullback/wingback right now, anyway. McKennie is a #8 until he learns the game better. We should be trying to pair Trapp with one of those players. I think it makes the most sense to play a Trapp-McKennie CM right now with Adams as a wingback/fullback. All three should play, just not how we have it currently situated. Maybe in a couple of years someone like Durkin will emerge or McKennie will show more defensive discipline. At that point, Trapp's role should be reduced. Until that, he deserves a place in the starting lineup.
     
  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's never a good sign when the team you consider "our A-team" always changes after the game.
     
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  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Usually, bench. Otherwise, B2B RCM.
     
  6. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    No, he doesn't. Being an adequate passer doesn't qualify him for auto-start status when he's a traffic cone otherwise.
     
  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Brooks is the best passer on the team. I'm not so sure about the contention that Trapp is hitting passes that Adams or McKennie would miss. He makes easy sideways and backwards passes. He is missing many forward passes. I think Adams could easily miss those same passes. ;)

    What is the point of having Trapp in the team? Leadership? Defense? Passing? I guess you would say Passing, but he didn't accomplish any real passing of note. Adams actually had some passes that broke us out in the 10 minutes he had in that position. Brooks had many passes that were proactive. If Brooks can make the passes then Trapp should to. Trapp was dropping into Brooks spot often enough.

    I think Trapp can do a job, but not against Brazil. When we expect to have the ball 60-80% of the time, he will be fine.
    This was a different play, right before he was subbed out.
    McKennie is not a lone #6, I never argued that. I think his career arc is further up the field.

    Adams plays, for a little while, in the same league as Trapp at the same position. He is better than Trapp already. It has happened recently, but Adams is the superior #6.

    You can continue on with your, "Adams is a wingback" schtick, the kid has passed that by. It is happening fast, too fast for Sarachan and too fast for the few who still see the U17 Adams out there.

    Adams should get some games as the #6.
     
  8. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Adams is not a true #6. In MLS perhaps, but not against top notch international competition.
     
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  9. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    We don't play with a dedicated #6 simply because we don't have an international level #6.

    Few national teams play with a dedicated #6. What's fashionable these days is to play two box-to-box CMs, one with a more defensive role.
     
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  10. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    Playing a 4-1-4-1 with that personnel against that Brasil was crazy - unless he was going to get both wide men to track back a la Mandzukic!

    Even then is is still questionable. And of course that was never going to happen, LOL!

    And you are right. Wood is much better faced up to goal where he can run at defenders or run off a "target man". His skill set does not fit where he was placed.

    A sensible scheme against Brasil would have been a 3 man back line in either a 3-5-2 with either Green or Weah up with Wood (or that Nova kid maybe can play as target man-I haven't seen enough of him to know), or a 3-4 3 where you play a trident with 2 wingbacks and 2 CMs.

    Then you have 3 CBs (we have plenty of those) and 2 WB who can cover the flanks.

    Think about who was manning Brasil's flanks - Dougie Costa and NeyNey with Couthino flopping around all over the place. That called for a far more compact formation that still allows you to spring forward. Both Yedlin and Robinson are fast and decent going forward. With 3 defenders behind them and 2 CMs to give them cover we could have gotten a lot more push going forward as well.

    Oh well. I agree dave appears to be a "system" guy. That is a problem with a non-stacked lineup.

    Plus he has picked a system that very few clubs or nat teams use! Maybe Dave is a genius, I don't know, but those tactics were all wrong for the team we were facing.
     
  11. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a sign that you're learning about the pool. This is year 1 of a generational shift in the USMNT player pool. There will be large shifts as players are tested on the international stage.

    Not to mention, I think it's pretty clear that Steffen, Robinson, Miazga, Brooks, and Yedlin have cemented themselves as first-team choices, which you could not have said back in Couva.

    Green and Arriola are spot players at best, Wood needs to be set up for success, not an auto-starter, and the center midfield of Adams/McKennie/Trapp is certainly a work-in-progress. High hopes for McKennie and Adams, but it doesn't seem like Trapp is quite good enough on either side of the ball for the highest levels of the game.

    That's learning quite a bit about the player pool. That's a good sign, not a bad one.
     
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  12. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Plenty of teams still play with cdms or dedicated '6'. Kante isnt a box to box. Casemiro isnt a box to box. Jordan Henderson wasnt deployed as a box to box. Witsel not a box to box. William Carvahlo not a box to box. There are many examples of teams who still play with some form of cdm or holding midfielder.

    I dont see evidence to support your claim.

    Benched and Injured. lol He is definitely a cdm though.
     
  13. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ...So, what you're saying is, Sarachan's a great coach, but our players are crap?

    ;)
     
  14. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I think both those statements are false but with an element of truth.
    Sarachan is out of his depth at this level but he is also set up to fail with the low quality that exists in our player pool.

    We have one maybe two players that are close to top quality. We have a few others that are almost at the supporting level and we have a bunch that are pretty much CONCACAF level average players.

    At our best we can, maybe, play mostly even at our best with a team like Mexico.

    In this case given the players and the coaching I think we will be doing real good to get a 2-2 draw and that is possible if we actually have a home field advantage and not a home field disadvantage like we had against Brazil.
     
  15. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    No way the Brazil game cemented Yedlin and Robinson positions as starters.

    They were 100% starters before the game. After, there are many doubts (specially with Robinson, if you read the press).
     
  16. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yedlin, yes, he was a starter, you're right.

    That same MNT soccer press also wants MB back, so I'm going to keep my healthy skepticism if they want to write off a young FB for failing to go 1-on-1 with Douglas Costa. I am absolutely certain that previous flavors like DMB and Villafana would struggle in the same situation (because they've struggled against weaker foes on plenty of occasions), but they're without Robinson's obvious upside.

    And, it's a small but important distinction, I just said that they were first-team guys. I don't want to pen in anyone except for Pulisic to the starting XI. Those guys just seem like the best-looking players we've seen so far, so if a WC game were tomorrow, I'd want them on the field. I'd still like to look at the rest of the pool, though.

    And before anyone claps back that Pulisic being an auto-starter is bad/shades of MB, the good thing about Pulisic is he's far more adaptable than anointing MB (or, in the media's case, Will Trapp) as an autostarter. MB and Will Trapp necessitated formational changes to accommodate their weaknesses. Pulsic slots into a wing or central role in just about any lineup.
     
  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You forgot the winky face. I was making a joke, because I believe the exact opposite.

    Our pool is being underutilized by a poor coach. He is not "set up to fail", he is simply not set up for automatic success. If you are France, you can stick a BigSoccer poster in charge and have a large amount of success. You'd struggle against comparable opponents (e.g Germany, Spain, Croatia, etc), but otherwise, the talent disparity is just so great that you don't need to do much of anything to beat inferior opponents.

    The US pool right now is mediocre. Partly because there are some holes in key positions where the US has a dearth of talent. But also partly because these are players who are not very experienced on the international stage.

    Sarachan, being a poor coach, is unable to make those players into more than the sum of their parts, so he shoehorns players into roles that don't maximize their talents, or exacerbate their weaknesses, which makes the team play worse than their individual parts would indicate.

    The US was better than Mexico for an entire cycle under JK, and arguably we have a young player pool that is poised to have more individual talent than Mexico, so don't give me this BS that our ceiling is competing with Mexico. We've been there, done that, then fallen behind for a cycle, analogous to Mexico's poor 2014 cycle.

    And just like how it made a difference for Mexico, coaching is important for the MNT. Using Sarachan's poor coaching as a way to indict the entire pool is simply ludicrous.
     
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  18. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    #318 ussoccer97531, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
    I'm not going to make a big issue over whether Brooks or Trapp is a better passer. They both are very good for their position. Thats besides the point.

    I didn't say Trapp is hitting passes that Adams or McKennie would miss, but I'll address this point. I think he plays a passing game that you wouldn't see from either player. He is near the top of all the important passing categories (for a holding mid) every season in MLS. Adams plays in the same league, so we can make an easy comparison there. Trapp's passing numbers are significantly better than Adams. I think anyone could see that Trapp is a much better passer by watching them play. Trapp is one of the best passers in the player pool and the best we have at the #6 position. One of Adams main areas for improvement is his passing.

    McKennie is a pretty good passer for a holding mid. We could use his passing numbers at Schalke, but I don't think its a great comparison. He doesn't always play full games and he plays in a better league. If we did use them though, they would not be favorable in a comparison to Trapp. I think McKennie is an average (or maybe better) passer, but I don't think he stacks up here to Trapp. Trapp routinely plays passes of all ranges.

    You can say he only plays short or sideways passes, but I feel like thats an ignorant viewpoint. His passing stats show thats not the case. His passing is much cleaner than our other CM's, and his passing decisions are also better. With Trapp as a #6, we can actually build out of the back. You won't be able to do that with Adams or Williams or Canouse or any of these #6's people clamor for. I personally want to see a possession-based game. I don't know about other fans, but I think thats the most important part of the game.

    Passing. We've played 7 games since the WC, we've had the possession advantage in two of those games. Until that number is 4 or 5 (against the competition we faced), we will not improve that much.

    I think the #6 position might be the most important position there is for deciding your style of play. Barcelona could not play their style (pre-Valverde) with Real Madrid's holding mid. At the same time, Real Madrid might play a very different type of game with Barcelona's holding mid. The holding mid often times sets the type of game you will play.

    The problem extends further than just Trapp vs. other holding mids. I've said all around the field we need better passers, more technical players, players who hold the ball better. If we want to actually "play" against Brazil, it starts with putting guys on the field who can up that possession number. You can't start "playing" against Brazil until you try to give them a real game. Handing them the ball at the kickoff and playing bunker for 90 minutes is going to result in a loss a very high percentage of the time.

    As for what else Trapp brings, he brings a reliable presence. If we want to play a possession game (which we obviously should), Trapp has years in a role as a deep-lying #6 and has a credible body of work in that type of system. He's not going to make that many crunching tackles. Thats not his style of defense. He's more of a contain #6 than a destroyer #6. He will contain attacks, and let his teammates rally to the ball rather than try to win it back himself.

    Trapp also does not make many bad decisions out of possession. He's well-schooled at what to do when his team loses the ball. He puts himself into good positions when defending counter-attacks. You don't have to worry about if he will be caught up the field with the rest of the team when the ball is lost. Maybe the other team will score, but you can be pretty sure Trapp will be back defending, and making good decisions in his emergency defending.

    None of us know the team dynamics, but the coach says he's a leader. That counts for something, although that is not enough to get a player into the lineup who doesn't add football qualities.

    I agree, but we both know that we only have a couple of players who can do a job against Brazil. I also fully understand your point that Trapp will do better in a game where we have more possession, but why should we just concede the possession game before the game starts by putting out a lineup that can not keep possession?

    I'm not talking about playing Brazil here because we'll obviously lose that with any type of lineup. Why can't we out-posses a team like Mexico? The reason why we lose the possession battle so often is that they play more technical players with better ball-control, better passing, better decisions with the ball. They don't use better players. I think results over the past 20 years prove that. We play a more athletic team. They control possession, we try to score via set pieces and counters with athleticism. I think we need to rethink that strategy.

    Trapp is the type of player that should fit the style of play we want to play. The fact that he doesn't shows a big problem with the NT.

    I don't think Adams is a #6, so I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

    If you want Adams as a #6 though, be prepared for even less possession. Passing is probably the biggest weakness in Adams game, and we already are a very low possession team. We get by with work rate, athleticism, set pieces. It'll be even more like that with Adams as the #6. If thats what you want, you are entitled to that opinion, but using Adams as a #6 would probably be the 4th position I'd put him. I'd much rather use him at either full-back/wingback spot, and then I think if you are going to play him centrally, he'd do better in more of a #8 role. We don't have to agree about this though.
     
  19. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    Canouse is a good passer as a 6. I think he'd do fine.
     
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  20. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    That's good because we're in Concacaf.
    May have been a one-off, as that play hasn't been duplicated. Maybe it was Williams, who injury record isn't the best. Maybe Portugal didn't take the match too seriously.

    Of course, the roles matter! A 6 in a 4141 has a far different role to that of an 8. Trapp was 80% in his passing. He was dispossessed once.
     
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I'd say Casemiro was the best mid. 80% passing is great against Brazil. Trapp had over 6 successful forward passes. And certainly with a 6, one would want his longer, forward passes to be the ones that went astray.
    Adams seems to be doing fine in the same role.
    Multiple players missed passes on breakaways.
    All the US center mids were dispossessed.
    Most of the problems were elsewhere in the formation. I'd rather see a different used though.

    Sure.
     
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  22. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    #322 FeedhimtothepigsArold, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
    The play hasnt be duplicated because we havent seen them together again. You are well aware of that. I know you pay attention.

    All of a sudden Portugal werent taking the match serious? The problem is Trapp/MLS defenders tend to pick and choose which friendlies they feel are 'serious'. I bet its different in the France friendly because Trapp was playing right?

    Many are now trying to force praise on Trapp for his role in a toothless 2 nil loss. Its loser behavior and I think we can do better. Trapp was not good vs Brazil. Very few of our players were. By the way, being dispossessed and a errant pass can be different. Both turnovers but there can be difference.

    I think Trapp should be part of the pool. I dont think he should be captain or an every game player.
     
  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Longs odds of Williams being a major part of the team, given his age and injury history.

    Maybe Portugal weren't. Maybe they were. I'm not familiar with their history in friendlies, hence the 'maybe'.

    Trapp was the lone d-mid in a 4141. The blame for a toothless attack lies elsewhere.

    I don't is suggesting he should be captain or even a lock starter. He has simply played well in his international opportunities. That is all.
     
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  24. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Trapp has been good in some friendlies. Then again, hes had just about all the work, so theres no one to compare him to.

    Agree about Williams. There are still other dm options though.
     
  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Probably best to play without a lone d-mid.
     
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