I think you guys are missing the crucial point of what CE has been arguing here. The USMNT is not at a point where it can demand that all of its players be everyday starters at the club level. Even the best NTs have a few guys who don't get a lot of time (because they are at huge clubs). That's pretty obvious. However, the USMNT has progressed to a point where there's some legitimate competition at some positions. So what CE has been arguing is that if you are rotting on the bench at your club, you might get lucky or you might not depending on what position you play. So you can't really complain about not getting called up when you aren't playing. Yes, some benchwarmers will still be called up, but it's not a God-given right any more. Adu happens to play a position where there is competition. If he were a left back it might be a different story. Likewise, Beasley does not have much immediate competition. Convey has gone down the tubes, Lewis is old, Mapp is a waste, and Rogers isn't quite ready. Beasley will continue to get the call because none of the other LMs in pool have stepped up to claim his spot. Unfortunately for Adu, at this time Torres and Kljestan are much closer to him than the LMs are to Beasley, and combined with the fact that his match fitness is questionable, this was enough to push him out of the Mexico roster. I don't think Adu's omission is a huge statement. He's still a very good bet for 2010, but a roster spot shouldn't be handed to him on an a silver platter. With our schedule, guys like Freddy and Mo will certainly get their chances, but to be a lock on every WCQ roster they need to help themselves by playing at their clubs.
I tend to agree with Missionary that Freddy needs to find a new team and get some playing time. I am not advocating a return to the MLS (beause Freddy struggled in the MLS) but I do beleive it would be a help for him to find a team where he can play every day. Hell Monaco does not even have a reserve team where he can get his 90 minutes week i and week out. Good to see Rogers made the roster. It makes a lot of since to have a fast, two footed player on the roster who is very familiar with the field.
If there was a better option than Beasley out there, who was actually in-form and in-season, I'd be happy to play them. However there really isn't. Rogers had a chance to win the spot against Sweden, but he didn't take advantage of the opportunity (like Ching and Kljestan did). You could put Dempsey, Kljestan, or Donovan out on the left, but then you're taking them away from their best positions (and the positions they'll have the most impact.) I'd love to replace Pearce and Bornstein with somebody right now as well, but I just don't see who that would be. Hejduk's not mid-season, plus he's better as a right back. You could move Boca over, but I'd rather keep our CB pairing together for this one. Bob looks to have made a decision between Cooper and Altidore. Both aren't really playing right now, but Altidore is mid-season. I wouldn't really have been too upset if Bob had picked Cooper. Same with the Davies-Adu argument. If Bob had picked Adu, there would be a group of people on here arguing that Davies should have been included. He's offers something different from the other strikers, blah, blah, blah. The truth is we've got a lot of options (compared to the past), which makes these rosters great for debate. And for the players, it's not 1998 anymore. We could write 95% of all rosters down in stone. Now there's real competition, and you better be performing.
You've encapsulated what I've been saying better than I did in the first place. If you're not playing for your club, you're at the point where your position with the USMNT is in doubt. Why? We've got a lot of competition out there. Especially in the central midfield area. You better be playing, and at a pretty high level for your club team, if you expect to distance yourself from your competitors. I love the fact that guys like Edu and Arguez are testing themselves at high levels in Europe. But if you're not getting playing time, you just might lose out to Torres and Bradley. We can argue about Bradley's inclusion all day long and not come to an agreement, but the kid is playing in the most-respected league out of all of the options right now.
Actually I think it's health to shake things up a bit, I just wish the practice was expanded to reflect all players form not just the few who seem to be under regular scrutiny.
I like Appoo's suggestion. Migrate Beasley to left back. He has all the tools to be a fantastic left back. You don't do it this match. But hopefully we begin to see it before WC10.
Well, each coach has a core group of guys that they're going to include no matter what. That's every coach in the world for every team. It's clear that Bob has decided to go with Howard in goal and the Boca-Gooch pairing in the middle of defense, for instance. He's said in interviews that he wanted to put that group together so that they've had plenty of work with each other. That's fine. It's also clear that Donovan has a place in this team regardless of fitness, etc. Arena got into trouble because his "core" guys in 2006 let him down (Reyna, O'Brien, etc.) In coach Bradley's case with this roster, I think we're all nit-picking a bit. Everybody has a guy they'd like to see on the roster (Adu, Edu, Cooper, etc.), but I can't really make an argument AGAINST any of the players we do have on there. If he put Edu on the roster, he's probably take Torres off. Then we'd all argue about that. Same with Cooper-Altidore. It's great having options, and it's frankly fun to argue about.
Spector's played left back for West Ham. If he could ever stay healthy, he'd be the option. If there was ever a confusing transfer situation it's Pearce's. He needs to get the hell out of Rostock, but didn't move in this January window. I guess Hansa wants him to stick around for depth. But if he's just sitting there, he can't assure himself a starting slot here. I bet Bornstein starts because Bob has seen him against Sweden and in camp cupcake. All things being equal, a coach is going to go with what he knows for games like this.
I have no idea if Beasley would make a good LB or not, just wanted to point out that what it takes to play good defense from FB position is entirely different than what it takes to play good defense from the midfield. It's a different mind set and skill set. In the outside midfield positions defense is about harassment. In the back, defense is about positioning and applying pressure without losing that positioning. Not to mention marking in the box and such. I'm not saying Beasley couldn't adjust to it. Just that it is a very different proposition than the style of defense he currently plays. That said, he would immediately go from a below average midfielder to an above average fullback from a technical skill standpoint.
If you look at a list of the guys who are locks for Bob's Starting XI of the near- and mid-term future: Donovan Dempsey Bradley Beasley Cherundolo Onyewu Bocanegra Howard All of them are playing regularly for their clubs except for Beasley. Donovan isn't starting either, but even if he turns out to be a regular sub, Bayern is a big enough club that just being in the picture there is enough. Now, I agree with you when you say that on BigSoccer, Adu gets hammered over the club issue more than other guys with the exact same issue, but our opinion doesn't count. I don't think Bradley is penalizing Adu more than other guys. Our choice for LB is limited to who we feel is sucking less at any particular point in time. In other areas, like CM, we have the luxury of sorting through a larger pool and picking the hot hand.
Excellent post.... I don't think Bradley is punishing Adu, intended or not I think Adu staying in Monaco to compete for play time will be a net positive. It's the folks on BS with the sliding "must be playing" rule that gets my blood pressure up. In addition, I think the athletic players like Jozy and Davies matches up particularly well vs. the "shiftiness" of Adu in this game.
It's also true that veterans get more of a pass on this playing time issue. We've all seen Beasley play well in big and important games, when he wasn't really getting playing time then either. I mean, it's been quite a while since he was a regular starter anywhere. But Beasley's looked really good against Mexico in the past, including the Columbus WCQ in 05. He's a known quantity. Adu, Cooper, etc. aren't known quantities in big games. I think we'll see all of these young guys like Adu this summer in the Gold Cup and Confederations Cup. It'll essentially be a competition for the WC10 roster. Adu needs to prove that he can perform at the elite levels, because he hasn't done it in club football or for the USMNT (he has for the U20's and U23's). There's a whole host of other guys we're not talking about. There will be a few guys who have monster MLS seasons over the first half. Let's say Gaven finally goes nuts and fulfills his potential. Let's say Arturo Alvarez or Bobby Convey look really strong on the left for San Jose. What if Sean Franklin in LA looks like a good CB. From the European contingent you could easily see Danny Szetela, Frankie Simek, Jonathan Spector, Benny Feilhaber, etc. make a move. What if Eric Lichaj starts getting playing time for Villa. (Some have said he's on the cusp of the first team, and wasn't loaned out this transfer window because Villa want him around). I mean there's a lot of interersting options out there other than the Adu issue. That's simply the one that sticks out right now. The central midfield argument is crazy for the USMNT. I can't remember the last time we had 10 viable options for a World Cup squad in one position, but we could easily have that in this case.
Much has been made of this playing time argument and whether it should disqualify players. Some people have addressed this, but I'm gonna take a shot: Lack of playing time doesn't disqualify players on our USMNT yet. We simply don't have enough quality players to do that. Therefore, you have to consider each player and situation on an individual basis. Landon Donovan - he just came off of an MVP-worthy season in MLS and is earning some PT for Bayern Munich. Even if he were rotting on the bench in Germany, he would still be here and be a lock starter. Why? He's the best player we have at a number of positions, regardless of form. DaMarcus Beasley - He's in a situation where he actually has been rotting on the bench and he's here and will be a lock starter. Why? He's the best LM regardless of form. He's proven this as the starter for the past 7 years. A few months on the bench doesn't change that. Bradley and Dempsey - They're starting every week, so I don't know why people bring them up. Heath Pearce - While Bornstein was struggling, he proved to everyone watching that he was the #1 LB with strong performances in the summer friendlies. Even though he's not playing, there aren't 2 LBs that are worthy of taking his place on the roster. He's a concern for the future, but right now he's still either #1 or 1A. Freddy Adu and Maurice Edu - Here's where you have to think like a coach and be critical. These are young guys who have shown flashes but they haven't proven anything at this point. They don't have a track record of being the best at their position. These are guys that need to be proving themselves because they are in battles with 2, 3, 4 other guys for the same spot. That means in direct comparisons they could potentially lose out to guys who are playing more in comparable leagues but have less natural ability. It doesn't seem strange to me that their lack of playing time is held against them. It's not like it's a principle thing where Bob is sitting up on his throne and saying "Anyone who doesn't play for their club will not play for me". However, when a player isn't good enough to be considered a lock and is competing with other players for their spot, they are going to be compared and playing time is a major factor in these critical games.
DaMarcus Beasley - He's in a situation where he actually has been rotting on the bench and he's here and will be a lock starter. Why? He's the best LM regardless of form. He's proven this as the starter for the past 7 years. A few months on the bench doesn't change that. Have you seen Torres' recent club form?
I wouldn't say it's considerable. But either way, that doesn't really help your argument because chad is arguing on a different level. If you want to have a balanced midfield, you have to think of it like a math problem. A perfectly balanced midfielder who contributes the exact same offensively and defensively would be a 0. An attacking midfielder would be a positive number and a defensive midfielder would be a negative number. If you want your midfield to be a net 0, you need to have a balance there. Let's say, hypothetically, that Michael Bradley is a 0 - meaning he's well-rounded. Kljestan would be a +1, and Clark would be a -1. The point is that if you use Bradley and Clark you end up with -1 net. If you use Bradley and Kljestan you end up with +1. Your midfield would be unbalanced. If you use Kljestan and Clark you would be net 0. Even if they aren't as good individually as Bradley, the team might play better as a whole. The numbering system completely oversimplifies the process, but I like it.
Yes and I don't consider him to be a LM. We can agree to disagree there, but he definitely deserved to be included on the roster, and his club form is the reason Edu got left out.
In regards to the Sacha-Bradley combo - I am ok with what Bradley has brought and am very excited with Sacha's potential. I assume this is what Bob will do in the middle. However, they are both suspect to have absolute stinkers from time to time. Bradley has, at times, really slowed things down (in a bad way/ not a Reyna-like way) and looked very indecisive or just made the wrong pass. Sacha can have periods where he has no idea what good pass looks like. I am terrified at the prospect of both of these happening at the same time on Wednesday. Negative nancy aside - one real spot where we have the advantage is between the sticks. Has Howard not been an absolute BEAST this year? Sanchez, I have no idea about him lately, and could care less. Eff him. Howard by a mile over that scum.
If your point was that we got a bit lucky in 2002, I agree. But, I don't think 1998 should be lumped in there, especially if we're talking about club success, as I don't believe that squad bears much of a resemblance to our current one. 2002 and 2006 are much more alike and much more useful in assessing our current ability. In 1998, we had 4 European based field players on that roster and our most accomplished of them was captaining a Bundesliga side that avoided relegation by 1 point (Deering was a rotational player on that same side, Regis was a starter for a relegated club, and Stewart was a starter on a bottom half Eredivisie side). Compare that to 2002 and 2006, where we had 9 European based field players both times and several players starting in the Champions League within both cycles leading up to the cups. In 2002, one of our players was even starting for a team ranked #2 in the world within that cycle, while half our starting lineup in 2006 had worn the captain's armband for a Premiership or Bundesliga club all within that cycle or shortly afterwards. I mention all of that because our 2009 roster resembles the 2002 and 2006 ones much more than it does the 1998 one. The roster in this thread contains 12 European based players, 13 if you count Cherundolo who clearly would have started had he been healthy; 7 of them have gotten minutes in top 5 leagues this season; three or four of them have started in the Champions League in the past; and one of them is currently on a top 10 team. So, if we throw 1998 out, we're left with one success and one failure. It's impossible to tell from that which one is the fluke. My opinion is that we got a bit lucky in 2002, especially by drawing a team in the Round of 16 that we knew we could beat, and that we got a bit unlucky with the draw in 2006. In general, I think we are a team that should be consistently able to put forth a strong challenge for a Round of 16 berth, but one that shouldn't expect to advance every time and shouldn't view a quarterfinals appearance as unrealistic.