US Goalkeeper discussion thread - Part III

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by ussoccer97531, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thing is we don’t have any competitive matches for a long, LONG time!

    I’ll stand by that Guzan may be called in for Gold Cup duty if no one else takes the reigns by then. I hope that’s not the case, but nonetheless, he’s omitted until May 2019 , in my group.

    I don’t see the point in calling in Melia. He’s old as dirt and he’s only going to decline. Even come 2019, he’ll likely already be on the path of regression. It’s a Klinsmann like boneheaded move to make him a mainstay on the national team at this point. (Not calling you boneheaded, just don’t want to see any coach repeat Klinsmann’s mistakes of calling in players who are way too old to be part of the cycle).

    I agree with Hamid, Bono, Steffen, and Gonzalez. But still, Horvath very well could rebound. Remember even Tim Howard had these dark periods, and could have been casted aside too. I’m not saying I’m sold on him forever. He does need to perform. But he’s granted a grace period.
     
  2. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I find it mildly amusing that the Big Soccer narrative has become that goalkeepers decline as they get older. Perhaps, Tim Howard’s recent performance has contributed to this.

    Watch the older goalkeepers at the World Cup for a different perspective.
     
  3. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #28 onefineesq, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    I mapped out the ages of World Cup keepers for 5 or 6 World Cups, about 5 or 6 years ago. While I don't have my research any longer, I can tell you that the average age of keepers over that sizeable sample size was somewhere between 28 and 29. So keepers declining with age isn't a Big Soccer narrative ... it's the worldwide truth. Keepers don't peak at 33, by and large. That's a fantasy. While the better keepers are able to play well long past the average field player's peak, they DO in fact decline with age, even if they dont reach the very end of their peak years until they approach mid-30s. If they didnt, the average age of keepers in the sport's premier tournament would be a lot older than approximately 28 1/2.
     
  4. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #29 deuteronomy, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
    Thanks for sharing this. And certainly it would be nice were the research available.

    Do you recall if these numbers included the three goalkeepers on each side, or strictly the starters?
    I would also offer that 28 1/2 is still an older figure than the typical field player, and I am curious, as to how you might determine their peak years. I can remember my Dad asking me in my early thirties, if I thought I had begun to go downhill physically. He was an MD, and in my arrogance, I said I did not. So, in a sense, I agree.

    Most pundits here, have no awareness of organizing a defense or commanding a goal area, for example. Shot stopping, agility and circus type saves reign supreme. Many lessons come from experience and despite the decline of the physical attributes, the mental focus and knowledge gained from this experience can be a great asset.

    My point, really, is discounting a goalkeeper, based solely upon his chronology would be a prejudicial mistake.

    And just as an aside, here's a pretty good list of greatest ever goalkeepers. Note how many continued to play after the age of 28 1/2.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1516455-25-greatest-goalkeepers-in-football-history

    Cheers!
     
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  5. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I REALLY wish I had kept the research. But alas, I have no idea what I did with it. I can definitively state this though: you are 100% right that the keepers ages were older than field players ... which I had expected (I actually did ages for each general field position ... keepers, defenders, midfielders and forwards). The forwards average was 26-27, midfielders 27-28, and both the defenders and keepers were 28-29 (the keepers age was marginally higher within that range if I remember correctly).

    To answer your question, the ages were for all keepers, not just for the starters. What I found surprising though was that there really was no significant skewing to younger keepers as the backups. It was really all over the place. Some teams had kid gloves on the bench and others had ancient muffs on the bench. I mention that to say that I do not recall the starting keepers generally being skewed far from the average age.
     
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  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    is that a problem because JK didn't give Hamid or Sean Johnson enough opportunities or simply because they didn't take any opportunity that was given? Too many times JK stuck with Rimando as no.3 when either of those 2 would have been ideal
     
  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nope. He's been benched.
    It should also be noted that he made the type of howler in the last USMNT game that isn't acceptable at that level. We're not accustomed to that.

    We're not giving up on him by any means However, in order to be called up to the USMNT as a keeper you have to be starting. And we're not talking about Serie A here. He was benched in Belgium. We're not calling up bench players in Belgium over MLS guys.

    As we know, he wasn't going to be involved in January anyway. So Steffen, Gonzalez, and Bono for me at that camp.
     
  8. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'd name Steffen and Gonzalez to duke it out for the winter call-up with a nice reward for Melia brought in as well.
     
  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Sean Johnson has been schizo in MLS. He'll have string of performances in which he'll look like a potential USMNT keeper, and then he'll have another 10 in which he'll just look like an average MLS keeper. I've never had him ahead of Hamid in my queue.

    Bill Hamid has had some horrid luck with injuries. There have been a bunch of times when it looked like he was finally getting his chance with the USMNT, and then he'd have pull out with an injury. Last January camp is an example, right? He just hasn't been able to gain momentum with the USMNT. He's going to get his chance now.

    We've had other guys like that. The same thing seemed to happen to Chad Marshall. That guy is a 3-time MLS defender of the year, and only has 12 caps.
     
  10. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hear ya, but personally, I think it’s too radical of a decision. Granted, if we’re talking about he hasn’t played for a year and the times he was called up, he was consecutively poor then okay. But, let’s say, God forbid, Pulisic gets benched at Dortmund and then scores an own goal and then gets a red card for the US, are we going to rule Pulisic out indefinitely? I doubt it. I think it’s the same mistake with Horvath, even if it talent levels are worlds apart between the two. Whereas, what if he rebounds? What if he could use a USMNT call up to regain confidence and reclaim his position thereafter. That’s a real possibility. To me, it’s just shortsighted to say that mistake and very recent club struggles exiles him from the team... especially when we are in a casting a wide net phase. Now, is the time to be more forgiving, otherwise we are going to end up with aging, past their prime MLS has beens to make the same mistakes in 2022 that we made in 2018.
     
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  11. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Oh.............I'm not giving up on Horvath by any means. Our keeper situation won't allow that. He still has talent, and we can continue giving him opportunities.

    Until he can reclaim his starting position with Brugge, I simply have him lower on my depth chart than the MLS guys like Steffen, Gonzalez, Bono, etc. I don't know why anybody would have him higher on their depth chart than Hamid at the moment.

    Also worth noting that it appears one of our top US U20 keepers from the last cycle is about to sign a pro deal. All three of our keepers from the U20 World Cup will now be on pro deals (Klinsmann at Hertha, Brady Scott at Cologne, and Marcinkowski with San Jose).

    He'll be fighting it out with Tarbell in San Jose as it appears Bingham is out the door.
     
  12. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    any reports on whether Bingham is going abroad?
     
  13. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I think I’m talking parallel in a sense to what I mean.

    If anything, my main point is I’m against giving anyone the number one starting job right now. If I were the coach, “I’d be vague and say, we’re going to give opportunities to about 5 keepers we’re watching closely for now (until the Gold Cup).” Horvath is in the 5. Along with Steffen, Bono, Gonzalez, and Hamid.
     
  14. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    Has the younger Klinsmann shown any maturity yet, or is he still the same little prick Twitter introduced to us in 2014?

    It's going to take a lot for me to want to root for a guy who pissed on a US Soccer legend on his darkest day.
     
  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I don't know, but he's going to make his debut imminently................!
     
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  16. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    JT Marcinkowski locked in to a HG contract at San Jose. If hes as good as billed, Tarbell should be very worried about his starting spot.
     
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  17. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    there's a time to let things go. It's been 3.5 years.
     
  18. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    No, at least not for me. I can forgive a lot, but kicking someone when they're down like that... suggests a person with a rotten core. Values are often set at that age and don't change. And people like that, I want nothing to do with.

    If anybody knows the guy, tell me I'm wrong.
     
  19. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    while I agree with your reasoning, perhaps he sensed the hostility between his dad and Landon and so of course he naturally supported his dad.
    He was a kid. It's not as if ran over someone.
     
  20. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Yep. If I could see myself at 16, I'm sure I was a moron. Hopefully, he's done some growing up.
     
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  21. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    18 year olds say and do dumb things. Nowadays, some of these comments are recorded for posterity on social media. Jonathan Klinsmann apologized and learned a harsh lesson. He hasn't posted on twitter since March of 2014.

    With all of the problems we have in the US Soccer world, Jonathan Klinsmann's comments in 2014 rank somewhere below "are we giving our kids enough orange slices at half-time?" on our list.
     
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  22. Winoman

    Winoman Drinkin' Wine Spo-De-O-De!

    Jul 26, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we ll could say that.
     
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  23. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
  24. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    so we have Guzan as a reliable vet with the likes of Hamid, Horvath, Gonzalez, Steffen, (and now Klinsmann throwing his hat in the ring).

    Loads of potential from now until 2022.
     
  25. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    haven't heard anything mentioning Cody Cropper in a while. how did he do this season?
     

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