US Goalkeeper discussion thread - Part II

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by giffenbone, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    that's the fair comparison I think if, Ochoa and Guzan are pretty much the exact same keeper, for better or for worse.
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think Guzan is a better keeper than Ochoa....................but its close.

    If Guzan is our starting keeper at the World Cup in 2018, we'll be fine. I think we saw this past weekend that Guzan is more than capable of getting the job done in challenging circumstances. One can argue that Brad Guzan earned us a point in that game.

    To me there's a weird contradiction about Guzan on these boards. His positive play for the USMNT on the field doesn't match the negative comments made by poster about him. In the overwhelming number of games he's played for the USMNT, he's been really good. He'll have a bad game now and again, but he seems to be judged more harshly for that than the field players.

    I think the day has also come when we stop judging keepers by whether they're in Europe or not. MLS has starting paying keepers much more money to stay, and its a better league than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Ethan Horvath is playing for a club in Belgium. So what......................that doesn't mean he's actually better than a single one of his MLS competitors. He needs to prove that by his play on the field. So far he's played in what.............4 league games for Brugge?
     
  3. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would also agree that if given the choice between the two id have Guzan starting over Ochoa, slightly.
     
  4. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I haven't seen the match but how was Guzan? Is he redeeming himself?
     
  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Guzan made a couple of real top-quality saves during a 20 minute stretch (maybe 50th minute thru 70th minute) when Panama was completely dominating proceedings. Even on the goal we conceeded, he made a nice stop on a shot. That rebounded out, the attacker beat a couple of defenders.................and it went thru. Blame can be assigned (if folks are into that sort of thing) all over the place on that goal, but not on Guzan in my view.

    I just think our standards are sooooooooooooo high based on Howard, Friedel, Keller, etc. that we're missing the fact that Guzan is pretty darn good. He's more than capable of getting the job done.
     
  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    hopefully we wrap things up with a clear cut win in the next game. I wanna see Hamid against Nicaragua
     
  7. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cuzan had the best game I have seen him have for quite some time. He was very good. Still don't like that he isn't more aggressive in coming out to grab floating long balls but that is more my preference than a necessity. I have not been a fan of his for a bit now. But he earned us the draw.
     
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  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think Ochoa is under rated around here.

    I think Guzan is under rated around here... he's a very solid GK who is about one step down from our top guys. He's gone through very rough stretch and would imagine he will regain his confidence with this tournament and once returning to MLS.

    It isn't where they play, but where they have played in the past. Howard wouldn't be near the goalkeeper he is if he would have stayed in MLS. The same goes for Keller, Freidel, Guzan, Hanneman, etc (even though MLS wasn't initially an option). The significantly higher level of play, the competition for spots, and scrutiny he was under made a much better goalkeeper and significantly mentally stronger. Here's the mistake at 1:15 that was the beginning of the end for Howard at Manchester United.



    In March 2004, however, Howard's poor parry handed a last minute goal to Porto, eliminating United from the UEFA Champions League.[15] The error appeared to shatter Howard's confidence and he was replaced by Roy Carroll.[citation needed]After a period of rest, Howard reclaimed his starting position ahead of Carroll for the 2004 FA Cup Final, picking up a winner's medal. He was the second American player to collect a winner's medal in the FA Cup, after Julian Sturgis of Wanderers in the 1873 final. Howard was also named in the PFA Best XI in his first season at Manchester United.[citation needed]

    In Howard's second season with Manchester United, he started poorly, making several errors and was dropped again for Carroll. After Carroll made several errors as well, Howard regained the starting position but his performances were unconvincing, leading to Carroll regaining his place again, playing in the FA Cup final defeat to Arsenal.


    Roy Carrol was incredibly average goalkeeper and Howard was significantly more talented but they still split time in 14/15 season. How many times do MLS goalkeepers make mistakes like the one Timmy made against Porto and it's not even mentioned. Hamid gets hurt every year and then immediately walks back into the starting line up the minute he is healthy.

    Horvath being in Belgium doesn't mean anything today, but over time it will give him an advantage over his competition. I've said before that I have no basis for putting any one of Horvath, Steffen, or Gonzalez over the others, but if plays there for two years and then moves on to a higher level while others stay in MLS, I'd think it is very likely that he will obviously be ahead of them.
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Was the mistake really that bad of a mistake or is it just the pressure from it got to him? Cause he def could have stayed at Man United for years being a reliable no.2 and collecting trophies and $$$$.

    Though I believe the move to Everton pushed him. I believe it was 09 where he was ranked a top 10 keeper in the world. I'm sure many would criticize this but at his peak he was among the best in the PL and probably one of the top 15 keepers in the world.
     
  10. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It wouldn't be a surprise if Guzan figures in the next World Cup qualifying cycle. Don't expect him to be the #1 the whole way -- I think/hope one of the younger guys can claim the starting job shortly after 2018 -- but he could serve a backup and mentor role for most of the cycle, even possibly at the 2022 WC itself.
     
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  11. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    I think much of the negative opinion of Guzan recently comes from his club performances.

    Guzan's a fine, solid keeper, but I do feel he's on the decline and not as reliable as he once was. For example, I wouldn't feel comfortable starting him in the World Cup. It's unfortunate for him, that his prime has been overshadowed by Tim Howard's sustained longevity. Even when Howard does hang up the gloves for good - I think the team should be looking for a keeper of the future and Guzan will be just a stopgap.

    Of course - I'd be delighted if he proves me wrong. Looked quite good against Panama.
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It was a combination. It's a mistake a Manchester United GK is expected to make at a very inopportune time, the pressure that came from it, and the inability to regain the trust of the coach. In the end, Van Der Saar was a significant improvement and the type of move clubs like that have to make. Howard had tons of potential at that point but wasn't a polished GK at that level and arguably too big of a jump at that time. Moving on was probably the best thing for him at the time as not much point sitting on the bench.

    Howard was 24 when he made the move. Horvath could have two years at Brugge at the same age. He'll be better prepared than Timmy was for such a move but still a big jump. Those spots are for the best in the world... the Buffons, De Geas, Casillas, Courtois, Cechs, Donnarummas, etc might be able to handle in their early 20s, but usually more veteran players fill them.
     
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  13. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'm still in awe that arguably 1 of the top 3 biggest clubs in the world selected a US keeper from MLS. Was it a real shock? I'm amazed United didn't go for a Buffon or Casillas back then. How good was Howard in 2002/03? Was he just expected to be a no2 or really challenge as a no1?
     
  14. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He wasn't even the first MLS keeper to go directly to a big 20 European club on transfer (Liverpool is listed at #7 while ManU is at #3). Fielded went to Liverpool on transfer from Columbus in 1997.
     
  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Good point but I'd wager (despite being a fan of Liverpool) United were a bigger club ($$$ global reach) in 03 than Liverpool was in 97.
     
  16. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To answer part of your question though, he was signed to be the starter. He beat out Fabien Barthez, the French national team starter. I imagine he was signed because he was young and had a lot of promise. Howard has also won goalie of the year two years in a row in MLS. As is typical, he was also a deal at 4 million dollars as opposed to the 7.8 million pounds paid for the Barthez transfer.

    Howard like Friedel had a solid start and then a few really bad games. The leash is short for the top teams, but I would argue it is even shorter for a US player (how else did David James keep his spot in Liverpool all those years). That said Man U was a tough nut to crack. I think Ferguson used 10 goalies between Schmeichel and va der Saar.

    I did find this one anecdote from a UK football site. Of the 10 keeps between Shcmeichel and van der Saar, Howard received the most praise. "Howard is often regarded as flop. He wasn’t a success, but time has showed that it wasn’t the most misguided of decisions. Howard has gone on to become a Premier League stalwart with Everton and although it didn’t work out for him with United, the scouting system clearly correctly identified the player’s talent. It was certainly the wrong place at the wrong time for Howard, although I suspect even at his best, he would still be too error-prone for Sir Alex."
     
  17. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't doubt ManU were more valuable and I had them listed at #3, but Liverpool is also a huge global club. Not sure if we would treat it much different if it was Real Madrid versus Bayern Munich? regardless, that year ManU was defending a championship and finished 2nd and Liverpool finished 3rd.
     
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  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Guzan's performance last night? Will see Hamid or Johnson soon?
     
  19. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
  20. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  21. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Guzan should be dropped. Howard won't save us like 2014.

    Guzan is going to continue to have howlers at Atlanta IMO. Ignored because experience and seniority within the group.

    Oh well.
     
  22. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    was he that bad against Martinique?
    We better hope Arena recognizes Horvath and gives him a fighting chance to challenge for no2 or even no1
     
  23. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't know if I'd say he had a good tournament. He got better as the tournament went along. He nearly lost us the first game.
     
  24. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's happening.gif
     
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