Celito is a very nice guy. I know him from the Brazilian threads, where he posts valid analyzes of the local championshit and their national team. He doesn't know much about the situation here, obviously, which is not a sin for someone who lives thousands of miles away, and the USMNT doesn't exactly make the airwaves in Brazil. So, his lack of familiarity with the issues should be excused.
The media here has been bashing Klinsmann for five years, non-stop. He doesn't even flinch, and persists in his stubborn and clueless ways. Much worse than Dunga.
I'm not even sure if this is true. The talent gap is huge. I blame Klinsmann more for failing to develop players. We got nothing.
Really? Because soccer is like the second most played game by kids in the US, and the most played one in certain age groups. Every single city, town, and village in America has several soccer fields these days, which have been even replacing baseball fields. In my town, a set of baseball fields was taken down and made into soccer fields. All high schools and middle schools have soccer programs. Several colleges do too. I think there are grassroot movements. What is missing is serious and competent academies to professionally develop talent (they should be linked to both MLS teams and the USMNT), and more attractive compensation in the MLS so that better athletes get motivated to stay in soccer after high school. Sure, we do have academies but obviously they haven't been churning out talent. And while MLS has evolved, salaries there for the athletes are still a fraction of what they make in American football, basketball, baseball and even ice hockey.
Off-topic, but we've talked about it a bit in this thread, so, I'll risk it: Finally the Euro produced an exciting game, Hungary 3-3 Portugal - the latter (they needed at least a draw) qualified by a hair, after seeing Hungary get ahead every time: 1-0, 1-1. 2-1, 2-2. 3-2, 3-3. Wheew! CR7 finally got his groove again and scored a deuce. A very flat Sweden fell short to Belgium (which advanced); no Ibrahimovic in the knock out rounds. Italy who had secured first place before today, fielded the subs, still resisted until a late goal after having hit the post before, lost 1-0, Ireland made it.
For those who were glad that we made the semis (the final four): Sure, we did. We also proved that we don't belong.
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9469252/hidden-demographics-youth-sports-espn-magazine no, as of 2013 soccer was 5th for boys and 4th for girls. it's number 1 for all european, african, central and south american countries. I agree the trend is pointing up, but as i stated earlier, the culture isn't there. including the soccer culture at home. european coaches say you should know by 12 if that player will be elite....that's definitely not the case here in america. we're so far behind and partially due to the fact the art of soccer isn't passed down through generations like in south american and european countries. if you look at tennis, there's not a pro out there who started after the age of 10. and for 90 percent of those professionals their parents were the driving force, unless you were lucky enough to be Novak who's first coach (at age 5/6) was the same coach who discovered Monica Seles.
Really? I've seen stats showing 1st. I don't have links now, but look up a thread called Popularity of Soccer in the United States or some such, which I started years ago and got lots of posts. If I remember correctly people posted stats there about soccer being #1 as participation sport among kids. But maybe I'm wrong. Otherwise you make good points.
They have? Other than the Straus article he seems to have it pretty cushy. Of late skepticism has risen. But by and large I feel the media has given him a giant pass.
it ain't exactly news. though we did better than we all assumed. we're doing OK considering the players we have and resources we use. We def need to try new things to unearth some talented gems.
Really? I've read *countless* articles in main stream media, online journalistic sites, blogs, etc., questioning his tenure and wondering if he should be fired. There's been scathing pieces for example on how he disgracefully throws players under the bus. Of course it's not 100% of the time; these articles cluster more after big losses and big failures (of which this moron has had many), and of course at the very beginning people still gave him the benefit of the doubt, so maybe I shouldn't have said 5 years. But definitely my impression is that overall there's been a lot of negative articles. Of couse, you might go out and find some bland or positive ones (the stretch of three good victories we had before the Argentina debacle must have helped) but overall I see articles often having at least a paragraph or two criticizing him.
Sure, I know that. But somehow there is something bitter about getting into this kind of situation where you're really outclassed. Sometimes it is best to fight hard and fall short and stay in your rightful place instead of venturing where you don't belong and getting mocked and humiliated. It's somehow more dignified to just fight hard, fall short, and finish where you actually should finish. Often in the NFL playoffs people make a lot of fun of weaker teams that somehow make the latest rounds (sometimes thanks to an easier schedule) then get spanked. It's kind of pathetic. People say "they didn't play anybody; got lucky; but when they got there all that they proved is that they didn't belong." Should we always fight for advancing as far as we can? Of course!!! It's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that when we take a knife to a gun fight, we get poked with lots of bullets. It might be preferable from the fan standpoint (players should always fight as hard as they can) to get some cuts and bruises and lose a knife-vs-knife fight rather than proceeding to the gun fight, then getting killed. You know what I mean? It's like someone saying, "GTFO, United States, this is for the big dogs only!" I would have preferred the case in which we would have avoided hearing that by just finishing in the quarter-finals after a good game. What I'm getting at, is that I would probably be feeling less unhappy and less bitter if we had for example tied 2-2 against Ecuador, lost in PKs, and that would have been it. A very honorable participation. This systematic destruction we suffered in the hands of Argentina (like the even worse one Mexico suffered in the hands of Chile) ended up being *very* humiliating to CONCACAF. We know about the gap of talent, of course... but the way it happened, it just made it so *painfully* apparent! I mean, the two best teams we have to offer lost by a combined 11-0 to South America's two best teams! Darn! And this, because Argentina who had played 3 days before took the foot off the gas, thinking of the final. It could have been easily 14-0 combined score. Sure, there is a talent gap but this beating was just humiliating.
Really? Do you remember the great Bruce Arena in 2002? 2 wins - 2 losses - 1 draw and he is an arrogant prick about his "quarterfinal run"
This sounds right to me. I would add regarding post-college soccer that the college sport culture regarding soccer (and basically every other non-football, non-basketball sport) needs to change drastically. Realistically, college involvement in the player development process can't be easily side-stepped here. So, its status as second-hand college sport needs to be worked on. I don't know what currently exists to be honest, but sponsored scholarships, promotional partnerships between clubs and universities, and e.g. recruitment cooperation might be things to consider off the top of my head.
Can you name one Senior Men's National Team head coach that develops players for the Nats? That's like saying a coach for the NFL Pro Bowl needs to get more out of his players.
It depends on what age group you're looking at. Younger than about 14, possibly. A lot of boys drop out of soccer in middle school or early in high school, which is about the age school football teams start recruiting. Also, most players born before 1990 or so are further set back by the fact that youth coaches were mostly parents who had never played the game and were often learning it out of a book. Most youth sports are coached by parent volunteers early on, but in other US sports most of the parent coaches are themselves former players. Only in the late 1990s was there a critical mass of youth coaches who had played soccer themselves at any level. And it wasn't until maybe 2005-2010 that there was a critical mass of parents who had not only played, but also had seen what the game looks like at a high level. Also, there's the fact that the kids themselves were not watching high-level soccer in large numbers until the last 5-10 years. In other countries, the need for coaching the fundamentals is reduced by the kids themselves trying to emulate the players they see on TV. Now there's a bit of promise for improvement, as soccer has been the second-favorite sport to watch among American teenagers (after basketball) since 2011.
It might seem a lot of heavy criticism to you, but to him it's all minor and low-key compared to what he experienced in Germany in the lead up to the 2006 World Cup. And in that situation, in the end, the vast majority thought he was a hero and wanted him to stick around. So that's where he's coming from.
Plus the criticism he receives here he considers it to be from a naive fan base that doesn't understand anything about football.
Probably the basis of his "prickdom", as far as that WC goes, is that when we went out we did it by pushing Germany to the edge of the abyss and dangling Kahn over the great emptiness. It took the intervention the Hand of Frings to save Germany. Whereas with the Copa it was Custer's Last Stand....without the stand.
What, you're blaming the head coach and not the league for which they play nine months each year? The fan base is always naive and stupid -- in all sports. The problem is that the naive base is who buys the tickets and the merchandise. PS. When the Packers drafted Aaron Rodgers, the GM Ted Thompson was vilified on every fan board and in vast numbers. Green Bay fans loved Lord Favre a lot more than the soccer fans liked Landon Donovan. In retrospect, it was the case of the naive fan base being a naive fan base.
The only minor quibble I have with Klinsmann is having too much faith in mostly useless MLS players like Zusi and Beckerman. I would have kept Williams and Morales on the roster. But that has to be offset with JK's faith in players like Yedlin and Zardes that were deemed previously useless and are improving with every step they take.
That we don't belong with the current, World Cup runner-up Argentina team featuring a mature, composed Messi, especially without Jones or Wood and with one of our least dominant goal-keepers in years? Ok. If that is really news to you. Well. Ok. Could/should the US have given Argentina a better run for their money? Absolutely. Was the line-up uninspired? Sure. Did Bradley, Guzan, Beckerman and Johnson have less than average games? Yes. Did we also, actually spank CR, beat Ecuador twice in a month and get past Paraguay? Seems we did. So, if the complaint is "we can hang with the 2nd tier of CA soccer, but are not nearly as good as Argentina right now..." And the sky, my friend, is blue.
"Should be better" than beating #16, #22, and #35 while losing to #1 and #9 despite not having one player who would see the field for any of the Top 9 teams. Shaking my head. If a manager existed who could consistently overperform his team's talent as much as JK did this tournament, he'd be worth $20MM a year.
If it was Bob or Booce, you'd have obliterated them for playing an empty bucket. In this case, Klinsmann even played an empty bucket with a true 6 in Beckerman, had no target man rather a redundant combo of Wondo and Dempsey (which he did last year in his GC disaster w/ Dempsey and Ajo), and one winger with any speed, dribbling ability, and crossing in Zardes. Bob actually had the sense to not usually use 1 but 2 speedy/strong guys to have a hope of gaining possession up the field. On the wings he played two speedy players and/or dribblers who were inclined to carry the ball up the field off the dribble. And the bucket IIRC never included a CM as stagnant as Beckerman. Not earning a shot the entire game had everything to do with the combination of Klinsmann's inept tactics allowing the team to link-up throughout and player selection on that night. To boot, Klinsmann dug his own hole with the half-hearted press tactic when he didn't have the speed to employ it, so the U.S. got caught out of position frequently, instead of remaining organized. They came out from the first minute with this approach, and could have still reverted back to being compact after the early goal, with token pressure up top so the Argentinians couldn't just ping it around. "Bunker" Bob would have had the sense to semi bunker, counter in that game, and supplied the personnel to execute sufficiently on that plan to give the team a fighting chance. As far as the MLS scapegoat, yeah, nobody who was advocating for more players from that league to be integrated were simultaneously calling for Zusi, Beckerman, or Wondo. It's convenient to pinpoint them and in turn act like the league's players as a whole are a problem, not the inept coach for utilizing it so improperly. Williams would have been an upgrade, but Morales has never looked like a viable starter for the U.S. in a number of tries, and was a central part of the Gold Cup debacle. Blindly looking for anyone who was already in Europe because that's where they started out from growing up there is not some sort of sweeping solution. I suppose to someone who is super prejudicial. You seem to be contending Klinsmann wasn't prejudicial enough for you. Not being open-minded and using all resources available is never going to lead you to the best possible decisions and in turn results. Guess I should earn big points as a Packers' fan who before GB even drafted him, thought Rodgers was the best player in that draft. And before the transition happened, was fully supporting, even advocating for it, so as to not risk losing Rodgers long-term. (this has come up before) But are you trying to compare the Donovan and Rodgers' situations? If so, that would be some amazing false equivalency. Donovan was younger in relative terms, was rated the 2nd best player on the team by players, wasn't just capable of playing one position, and wasn't going to risk his team losing a player who was any good forever. The U.S.' pool is largely static, Donovan could have been taken over Davis or others, and Green is no Aaron Rodgers. So far he's not even Jordan Rodgers. Those who backed Klinsmann for that decision are on the wrong side of history. Actually, those who criticize Klinsmann lean heavily toward the dedicated US fan. Those who support him heavily toward casuals (i.e. ticket + merchandise buyers). I'm not even sure Klinsmann believes what he says to fans in large part, rather uses that as a defense mechanism. Either it's hollow, or if he does believe it, I guess this is the wrong place for him. Don't see how he could have any vision for the country and trust from the players who are part of the culture that way. He deserves plenty of ridicule for his naivety about football systems and tactics. Well, he does take most of the credit for development, in the minority of cases where one of his original selections actually pans out. So he can't have it both ways, and you for him. Pragmatically, he doesn't deserve credit or blame for it, although then it never should have been part of his sales pitch for getting the job and 3 million dollars per in the first place. We can blame historic bad results in modern times on MLS, defying the logic that it's worse than the previous standard when we didn't even have a league or when it was a lot worse, when he doesn't have a policy that doesn't involve making their original standouts persona non grata outside of one out of season camp at most. Hell, in a full five years, Nagbe was one of 3 exceptions to that rule, as a dual national he needed to cap tie, and sadly for him Klinsmann has still never started him, even in a friendly, after a year of availability. Centenario would have been a great place for him to showcase his talents to get that Euro magic on him. Shame he never got the chance, huh.