United States presidential election, 2008 [NSR]

Discussion in 'Colombia' started by minus, Sep 5, 2008.

  1. minus

    minus Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 18, 2004
    Miami,FL
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Slow week for football news..... Post your reactions to Obama and McCain party nomination acceptance speeches.
     
  2. minus

    minus Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 18, 2004
    Miami,FL
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    No one wants to discuss American Politics?

    [youtube]jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1[/youtube]
     
  3. MrPaisa

    MrPaisa New Member

    Jul 17, 2007
    Madison, NY
    I think we avoid it because politics on BS usually lead to arguments and neg reps :(
     
  4. minus

    minus Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 18, 2004
    Miami,FL
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Anything on BS leads to arguments... :p
     
  5. ogopogo

    ogopogo Member

    Oct 13, 2005
    Lake Okanagan
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    I'll say this: The average Colombian-American that votes republican is voting against his/her own interest.

    This election cycle has once again shown the hypocrisy of the republican party and its supporters.

    And this Palin nomination.... just another step towards idiocracy.
     
  6. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll say this: I'm a social conservative and not the average Colombian-American.
     
  7. minus

    minus Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 18, 2004
    Miami,FL
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    True....

    I'll be honest McCain is one of the few republicans that I have some respect for. I think he's the best they got by a mile but he is even more warmonger than Bush (Scary! :eek:).
     
  8. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    At the risk of offending anyone, I struggle to see how THIS Republican slate (whose candidate has openly admitted to cheating on his wife, and then left her for a billionnaire - his current wife and whose vice presidential candidates family is more like the Lohan's!) can make a legitimate claim at being socially conservative...

    I wonder how betrayed the right wing of the Republican base must feel by Palin's inability to manage her family, given how much of an issue they've made 'family values' within their platform. It's like they got exactly the person they wanted McCain to give them, only to see her exposed as the kind of person they've vilified for twenty years. I feel quite a bit for Palin's family actually given the situation, but honestly, can you imagine the venom that would have come from the Republicans if Biden or Obama's kid were pregnant from unmarried under age sex?

    Obama and Biden are showing a lot of class declaring that Palin's daughter is off limits as an issue for their surrogates to discuss.
     
  9. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    He WAS a great middle of the road player until he sold his sole for the nomination and flipped on every one of his signature issues (tax reform, the environment, energy, etc.). Heck, Karl Rove has said this week that McCain wanted Lieberman or Ridge as his VP, but was TOLD to pick Palin (because McCain's picks are both pro-choice), so he did as he was told.

    Can you imagine that? A candidate who's sold his soul that much that he can't even pick his own running mate?
     
  10. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He who is without sin cast the first stone. We ALL fall short. Even social conservatives.

    I didn't know McCain is a social conservative.
     
  11. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    obama is the antchrist, he is the famous black pope that the holly book say, in that time the powerfull man on the world was the pope, nowadays the powerfull is the USA president........and the world is to end at 2012 :D
     
  12. ogopogo

    ogopogo Member

    Oct 13, 2005
    Lake Okanagan
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    That's not the point. The point is that the so-called religious right and social conservatives are the first to wag their fingers at those who don't conform to their "morality". Furthermore, this is a woman who says that the only sex education that should be taught in schools is abstinence only, and that premarital sex is wrong. Yet she can't even control her own kid, but she's telling others how to live their lives. Oh yeah, her eldest was born full term 7 months after she got married, she couldn't control herself either.
    Someone like her shouldn't be legislating morality.
     
  13. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    That's the point, Sysco. Rove and the right wing have been throwing stones (in the name of a so called "Social Conservative" agenda) for a decade.

    McCain was NOT a social conservative, until he began reversing his positions on issues (like a woman's right to choose) at the start of this election run in the hopes of attaining support of so-called social conservatives. His selection of Gov Palin (a prominent opponent of a woman's right to choose who went so far as to oppose govt help for young single mother's in Alaska) has been politically interpreted by most as a tactic by McCain designed to accomplish two goals:

    1) Try to lure female supporters of Hillary Clinton who Rove&Co. believe may vote for a female irrespective of stance on issues.

    2) Function as a gesture on behalf of McCain to solidify his support from Social Conservatives that previously haven't trusted him.

    My point was that on point 2, McCain was pushed by the far right of his party to name Palin because of the 'family values' she represented, only to have her family scandal blow up the week he named her.

    The more ironic part for me, is that the right seems to be in love of her IN SPITE of her scandals and behavior that they'd (in your words) "stone" any opponent for.
     
  14. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its in your head that anyone wags there fingers at you. Get a backbone and do what you want.

    Even when you know what's the right thing to do it's not always done. That goes for social conservatives or any one else.

    My parents try to teach me abstinence but when it came time it was my decision to have premarital sex my parents were not there say anything. As a parent you can only do your best when it comes down to it a child will do what they want. I guess you did what mommy and daddy told you to do.
     
  15. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    McCain is still not a social conservative, where did you come up with such a thing? Now if that's your idea than that's fine, keep it. McCain chose her because HE though she gives him the best chance to win. Should he not try to win the election? Did Obama not chose Biden because of his experience and his lack there of, to try to win the election? Should McCain have gone with Liberman so he could have not shot? I wanted him to go with Mitt, but thats besides the point.

    You should stop drinking the kool aid ryu, very very very few Hillary supporters will side with her as you have clearly stated she is pro-life. Hillary supporters have no problem killing unborn babies, instead of being responsible and using contraceptives.

    The majority of Republicans are not Social Conservatives just in case you think all Republicans are.

    Obviously you just like Ogogogo guy think that Social Conservatives think themselves as higher beings. We know we are not.

    The "right" is still in love with her because she is a normal person, go back to my earlier post. It's just crazy what you must think in that head of yours about people of faith.

    Palin is not part of a well known family. She worked hard to get here self where she is today. Did you even listen to her speech? You could have found out alot about her and shes not so diffrent from most.

    Dont you guys worry, Obama will win the election and when nothing changes in the Middle East and huge changes happen to everyone standard of living here dont be so surprised :D
     
  16. minus

    minus Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 18, 2004
    Miami,FL
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Dude you must live in a fairy tale world because standard of living is going down the drain as we speak. The purchasing power of dollar is no where near it was Clinton administration. A few years ago the problem was job outsourcing but now Americans companies are being acquire by foreign investors. Thanks to Republicans!
     
  17. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Wow. I need to watch what I say as a mod on this, but Sysco, honestly, I'd ask that you read what I write before you respond from your gut. Political discussions can get dicey precisely because folks take things personally and start responding to what they preassume people are saying. Further, and sadly, this is, I think, one of the main things holding back bi-partisanship in America.

    I'm not criticizing 'social conservatives', but have instead been writing about the way McCain's team has sought to use the group that consider themselves "social conservatives" to his advantage.

    To this point:

    I never said he was. Fact is, he never even purported to be one until he needed them to win this primary. If you take a hard look at McCain, he is truly an individual without ideology who has reinvented himself twice now. First, as "the maverick" as a PR move to try and overcome the awful image he developed in the wake of the Keating 5 scandal. Second, after realizing he'd never win a republican primary as 'the maverick', he about faced on nearly every issue to appease the right and try to earn their support.

    He is ironically now trying to re-brand himself as a maverick for the general election...

    Did you read my post? I was specifically outlining that the McCain campaign (specifically Rove) picked her pragmatically, and the strategic aims she fulfills for them.

    A bigger issue here is that McCain elected her against his own judgment and was bullied into it by his advisers.

    Again. I don't think you read my post. I said that Rove&Co. believe Palin will deliver Hillary supporters. What they've discovered is that, as you note, most Hillary supporters have expressed disgust at being courted in such a transparently sexist manner - i.e., the ploy that simply seeing a women on the ticket will lead them to vote against their own interests.

    Without question, however, the Hillary supporter group was a target Rove&Co. hoped to reach through Palin, and the fact that Palin has referred to them in two of the three speeches she's given since her naming makes this even more clear.

    The "right" is in love with her because she supports their cause and sides with them on issues that are important to them.

    Honestly, I don't look down on "people of faith" because I AM ONE. Not sure if it comes as a shock to you that people on the left can also believe in god, pray every night, and quote scripture. That's probably the most condescending thing you can say to someone. There are all kinds of people of faith, and none of them are superior to the other. Grow up.

    One last thing: You know who else is a person of faith? Barack Obama. The irony is that Governor Palin has been criticizing his experience as a "community organizer," but do you know what he was doing? He was working with CHURCHES in Chicago to help poor people find work and take care of their families. It's what inspires Obama to go AGAINST popular wisdom amongst democrats and support public funding of faith based community organizations.

    All the priests, missionaries, volunteers, grass roots organizers that give their time to help people and do work in under priviledged communities across the country - those are normal people too - and Palin has mocked them in two consecutive speeches this week.
     
  18. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You might think I live in a fairy tale but you have no idea what I have gone through. You wouldn't even believe it if I told you, most don't.

    No matter who was in office after 9-11 nothing was ever going to be the same. I cant wait to see who in ours boards are "the government did it" guys :p

    Wait till they can get there hands on something that can cause more destruction.
     
  19. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Guys, the only argument you need to vote for the Democratic Candidate is this:

    [​IMG]


    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_05/006282.php

    REPUBLICANS vs. DEMOCRATS ON THE ECONOMY....Did you know that Democratic presidents are better for the economy than Republicans? Sure you did. I pointed this out two years ago, back when my readership numbered in the dozens, and more recently Michael Kinsley ran the numbers in the LA Times and came to the same conclusion

    [​IMG]

    This graphic shows that the richer gets richer when republicans are in office. Go figure!!!
     
  20. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't deny this, once again, he would like to win the presidency.

    I guess Rove makes all the decisions. McCain is his puppet.


    Once again how do you know? Or better yet who do you know? I read the paper, watch the news and try to be as informed as possible and not once have I heard he got bullied by Rove or his advisor's. Yes it was a calculated decision that I am sure he had imput in, but he was not bullied. Give up you source Ryu.



    So I guess what you and I already know and is painfully obvious but to Rove and Co. it never crossed there minds? Maybe I should become a Republican strategist.

    Ok I have also listened to Palins speeches and what part is she directly referring to them, maybe I missed it. Help a brother brother out.


    I know there are alot of different people of faith and there is nothing wrong with that. I am also glad that you pray and can quote scripture. I would never say that one is superior to another. Can I still think that abortion is wrong? I guess in you faith it is ok, but not in mine. Is that ok?

    I'm glad that Obama is a person of faith, really I am. Never the less I cant under stand how he could think that 3rd term abortion is not wrong and not vote to stop it. It's actually a pre mature baby.

    The reason that she even mentioned him being a community organizer is because his camp was saying, "what does a small town mayor know". Would they not be mocking all small towns in the US?

    How did she mock ME 2 times this week? I must have missed this one to.
     
  21. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Great, so what are you arguing about?

    Sure he had input. But in the end, he didn't get what he wanted, and decided to appease a part of his base with selection of his running mate rather than going with the person that he personally preferred - not very maverick like.

    I've got really inside sources that no one else has access to, like the The New York Times...

    (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/us/politics/31reconstruct.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)

    She has referred to the 18MM cracks in the ceiling and directly addressed Hillary supporters in her selection speech in Dayton and again today in Wisconsin. This of course follows McCain running ads directed at Hillary supporters the first two days of the Democratic convention.

    As I wrote earlier, I think everyone should have the right to believe in what they do - its what this country is founded on. I don't know what you are arguing about on this point.

    When life begins is a question of epistemology that I won't debate with you, because its a personal issue of faith - and I respect your right to have your beliefs. As you seem to agree above, we should all have a right to our own.

    For the sake of clarity, I think this is precisely one of the reasons why Obama protects a woman's right to choose -> he's said repeatedly that he personally wishes abortions never had to happen, but that he respects a woman's right to make that decision. Voting otherwise, would be to presume, for example, that his own faith is above that of every woman who has to face that kind decision.

    I guess so, because if you are a community organizer, she's said twice in two days that you have no responsibility.

    BTW, Obama's camp hasn't criticized her experience itself. What has been criticized is the hypocrisy of McCain electing a politician with little experience after making Obama's limited experience and lack of vetting a major issue in his campaign - in any case, this has been something levied more by the press than by Obama's camp itself. McCain's campaign is conveniently distorting the criticism in order to justify an attack that (I think unfortunately) hits at not just Obama, but all people that volunteer across the country as community organizers.

    Obama's position is that judgement, not experience is what matters, and his camp has been critical of Pallin's positions. In particular, Obama's campaign has been pushing the policy inconsistencies between Palin and the McCain platform, the paramount example being earmarks. They've also been critical McCain's vetting process, and the fact that he picked his running mate after a single interview.
     
  22. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Sorry doing quotes takes longer and I'm going to sleep.

    I thought we were having a conversation but any way. I'm arguing that he chose someone who might be able to help him win. So did Obama picking Biden for experience. IMO picking Hillary would have made it a sure shot. I guess they kinda hate each other and that wasn't going to happen

    NY times says his choice was Liberman, then definitely I should believe it :p Its the most liberal paper in the US, Liberman was an option but never going to be the pick. I'm also glad he didn't cause no one would have voted for either of them.

    I don't believe anyone has the right to kill a baby. Still him being the only Democrat to vote for 3rd term abortion is just awful.

    Alright I found the part about the Hillary supporters. Kinda dumb IMO as if these women would really vote for her (Palin).

    PALIN: And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves. I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a “community organizer,” except that you have actual responsibilities.

    Yes I remember hearing it. Sounds terrible. Community organizers are up in arms. Me I'm not so bothered I dont HAVE to do anything, you would think a mayor does.
     
  23. ogopogo

    ogopogo Member

    Oct 13, 2005
    Lake Okanagan
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Wait, and why exactly are you getting your panties all tied up in a knot?
    Es que se sintio aludido?

    All I'm saying is that rightwingers especially the "religious right" crowd like to dictate how people should live their lives. And these people usually have skeletons in their closets, and/or fail to live up to the standards they expect others to. Perfect examples are Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, David Vitter and now Palin.

    And just to be clear, are you against sex education being taught in school? If so, then why?.
     
  24. hadexxx

    hadexxx Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 3, 2005
    What does it matter? it's not like the people choose the President in the USA.. that is why this is not a Democracy... it is the famous "representative democracy" (something like a communism where we think we choose our leaders)

    In many representative democracies (Canada,Australia, UK, etc), representatives are most commonly chosen in elections by a plurality of those who are both eligible to cast votes and actually do so. A plurality means that a winning candidate has to win more votes than any other candidate in the race, but does not necessarily require a majority of the votes cast. While existing representative democracies hold such elections to choose representatives, in theory other methods, such as sortition (more closely aligned with direct democracy), could be used instead. Also, representatives sometimes hold the power to select other representatives, presidents, or other officers of government (indirect representation).

    A representative democracy that emphasizes individual liberties is called a liberal democracy. One that does not is an illiberal democracy. There is no necessity that individual liberties are respected in a representative democracy. For example, the Communist states were representative democracies who regularly held elections.
     
  25. ryu79

    ryu79 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    And I can't understand why that merits arguing since the original post I wrote, that you responded to with such condescension ("what goes on in your head?" you asked), stated the same thing.

    Please don't bring up the liberal media in this election. The so called Liberal media is McCain's base - and he has said so many times. It's part of why the "right" has been so reluctant to embrace him for so many years.

    The "liberal media" card is a brilliant tactic that the Republican party has been using to "work the refs" for decades. Statistics show that media coverage of McCain have has actually been dramatically more positive than of Obama (in terms of the stories they choose to run rather than editorial - because I'll grant that aside from David Brooks the Times' editorial board is primarily liberal) over this election.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,2066363,full.story

    This statement presupposes that your definition of when life begins is universally accepted, it's not - it passes judgment on the beliefs of others. You might think that life begins at conception or birth or consciousness, and its a question that will never have an objective answer. We can't know, so we believe, and there is nothing wrong with that. Yet differing beliefs will lead to differing stances on issues - this is one of them.

    Abortions are terrible events and there are many tactics we can take to make sure that women aren't placed in the position to make the choice, while preserving their right to make a choice based on their own faith and beliefs. Chief amongst those are sex education and the promotion of the use of prophylactics.

    Good for you! I think that a lot of community organizers would tell you that they feel they have a responsibility to the people they serve and I am sure Obama would tell you he did.

    It smacks at a broader inconsistency in her statements. After being a community organizer, Obama became a state senator representing those districts and actually pushing legislation to help those people. The districts he represented over those period are highly populated and actually multiple times the size of the town she governed as mayor. The equivalent would be the Democrats questioning how her time as a sportscaster helped the people of Alaska - they haven't and won't.

    Yet she didn't attack his experience as a legislator, I believe she went specifically after 'community organizers' because they are the bane of the existence of 'fiscal conservatives' since a large part of community organizing is petitioning government to take a more active role supporting people.

    Point is, Obama's time as a 'community organizer' is representative of his character and what he believes in. He's never claimed that its representative of his legislative or governmental experience - which is the point Palin is trying to make. Obama, does in fact have plenty of experience as an elected official (more than JFK did, Reagan did, Jimmy Carter did, and dramatically more than she does actually) - yet she chose to attack something he did before that period in his life - something he did, which a lot of people do, that I think is an intrinsically GOOD thing to do. Why belittle community service on the night after the theme of your convention was the word SERVICE? Its incoherent.
     

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