PBP: U.S. U17s vs. England, QF Round, 10/21/17, 10:30 a.m. ET

I think more of Dest than Sands but was planning to write much the same. My take on Carlton is similar but different. I feel he needs a lot of reps in tight spaces and discipline with the ball in the center third of the field. The good news is that the areas where coaching and reps can make a big improvement. The areas where he excels are much more rare and develop very slowly if at all in older players.

 

Guys, I'm curious about player development for US players, I really don't know zilch about it.

These are 16 and 17 yo kids, and they oscillate a lot, they have a lot to learn. Pulisic is way above the curve, can't really use him as a general reference

But honestly, what competition do these kids experience in order to develop and grow their game, their talent, more specifically domestically? I may be wrong but it seems to me that although there are good young players, they simply don't have the experience and don't face enough competition to develop that. Without this, they get to these international tournaments way too green. Not to say they can't or won't play well. We've seen really good performances, but they lack the experience to get through to the next level.

In Brazil, the youth divisions are always facing very tough competition. There is a U20 national competition where most of the Serie A teams participate in. There are regional state championships for U17, U20 where you have the top clubs participating, mirroring a lot of the rivalries. Then there are international competitions from CONMEBOL, and so on. These kids go through a lot in very competitive environments. There is for example every year in January, a U19/U20 very highly competitive and very high visibility tournament that brings 64 teams from all over the country, both from the top division pro clubs as well as clubs that exist with the sole purpose of developing players. This tournament has scouts from all over the world.

The point I'm making is that the clubs in Brazil take the development very seriously, and most importantly it is all completely decentralized because all of the development is the responsibility (a very strategic objective) of all the clubs... the different soccer federations organize tournaments, yes... but the development is something taken very seriously by the clubs. But the kids that move up through the youth divisions go through a lot of fierce competition, rivalries just as in the top pro levels, they gain a lot of experience which helps when reaching these international tournaments.

Of course, none of this guarantees trophies... but it's also extremely important to understand that, although winning the trophy is an awesome and extremely desirable objective, the absolute #1 objective of youth divisions is to develop the players, to prepare them for the top level. Like I said that Pulisic is one example way above the curve, Gabriel Jesus is another example... but in 99% of the cases, kids should NOT jump stages... a kid star player will have flashes of amazing play but simply isn't ready. This is seen time and time again in Brazil when some kid all of a sudden just breaks through, skips stages, moves up to the pro team and then stays benched and the majority of the time, his career goes nowhere. Development is important and needs to properly follow the progressive stages.

 

Like it or not, athleticism matters... a lot. It matters in some positions more than others. As I like to remind people, older players don't forget where to go, what to do or how to do it. They instead lose that half a step they had to get to where they wanted to go and needed to do what they wanted to do.

Carlton has the facial hair more typical of a 20 year old than a 17 year old. That doesn't bode very well for him. What does bode well is that he possesses some of the raw skills to unlock good defenses in the final third and those type of players are still able to get on the field at some advanced ages.

 

I did say England was better, and that they had more talent 1-11, so we agree on that. What I don't agree is to completely say we were awful, I don't think we were.

What I didn't say was that we had better chances. I said that both teams had chances, England had more and probably better chances, but us having 0 goals after that half seemed unlikely, given the chances we got. And given that I think we had the better keeper and defenders, along with better pure finishers (I thought those were some of our big advantages coming into this match), I'm surprised that the first half ended up with England pitching a shutout, and us being calamitous at the back.

I didn't actually think very many of our long shots were wild. We must've had 3 or 4 right near the top of the box with space. They couldn't get them on target, and you'd expect 1 of like 4 or 5 to go in, but they weren't terrible choices in isolation to have a shot. It just looks bad that none went in, and none were on target. It was poor finishing. We had a few others (Sargent hit the bar, Weah shot just wide from five yards out.).

I think there were some areas we really struggled. Defending at the full-back positions and defense centrally (at CB and DM) are certainly main reasons why we lost. What I wouldn't say is that means we were horrible all around the field, and it was an easy win for England. I'd argue it was mostly a pretty close game from the run of play. The possession stats, shots, and the ebbs and flows of the game show that, IMO. Those aspects don't always properly account for the circumstances within a game, but today I thought they did. I'm not saying we deserved to win or anything like that, I just don't think we were all that bad. We played a good team and I thought we played them well, very little shame in our performance.

 

I forgot about Weah's but the expected goals for a shot from 30+ from the run of play is extremely low (in fairness they possibly rushed since they were aiming at an English keeper and even Howard didn't exactly wrap himself in glory on that type of shot in T & T). and 4 of the first 5 shots fit the description.

There is a vast difference in being "horrible all around the field" and "mostly a pretty close game." This was a game of mostly one way traffic with the US leaving huge gaps because the lack of speed on the flanks and lack of ability to put pressure on the ball in the middle forced them to drop extremely deep.

BTW - if booth is 16, then I'd say he did pretty well for being tossed in the middle on an onslaught in what was really his first playing time in the tournament outside a few minutes on the wing against a team that had given up.

 

They didn't have a few more because their strategy was to wait for the opportunity that American coaches offer all teams while sitting in a defensive position. Around 12' Sands misplaced a pass and they got exactly what they planned for. Essentially, was that play much different than the goals Costa Rica scored against our senior team? Not really.

Let's not undersell our talent. The English showed a lot respect for the prowess of sargent Carleton Weah and company as a scoring threat. The next step is for our coaching to get out of this "fullbacks forward, 2 cb's back" routine that sees teams attacking our soft underbelly on the counter.

 

T&T hangover my friend. These kids were second in quals losing to Mexico on penalties. They went further in this tourney than any other CONCACAF side and lost to a strong team that has a slim chance of winning it.

But forget these results. Maybe one or two could start in 2022. By that time we should be able to count on seasoned vets like Yedlin, Puli, Brooks, Miazga, EPB, McKennie, Hyndman, Saief, Roldan, Wright, Wood, Jordan Siebatcheau, Taitague, Shaq, Parker, CCV, Steffen, Jesse G, Jona G, with talented younger guys like DLF, LLanez, Sargent, Weah etc.

 

this should tell you how out of touch you are with reality with these kids.

What does the U17 group finishing second to mexico in concacaf qualifying have to do with wc qualifying that starts in two years?

you brag about them doing well..but then say 'forget these results'...which is it?

maybe one or two could start in 2022....you realize that these guys will be 21 in 2022...outside of elite talents like james rodriguez...kids don't start the world cup. If you want to talk Hector Lozano...he is 22 and will be 23 right after the world cup ends. so he is much older relative. Also they will be 21 in 2022...when qualifying starts in two years...they will be 18/19. I know pulisic this and that, but the idea that they are going to have 21 year old pulisic surrounded by a few 19 year olds leading them to qualify is a joke. If you think that is a reality then you are basically going against what people are saying about the us struggling developing players.

the next problem...'season vets'....ummmm well pulisic...yedlin...brooks...wood....miazga...ok but everyone else...nowhere near seasoned vets. I mean if you take the rest of them what do they have..3 caps total between them right now lol. Not to mention Siebatcheau played with france U21 group this year I wouldn't hold my breathe that he'll switch.

 

I'm not ready to slit my wrists although I have often been accused of being out of touch with reality. One reality I am vaguely familiar with, though, is the concept of the passage of time. Thus, "three caps between them" in 2017 is not the same as what they might have in 2019 and beyond. The guys I mentioned are really just the tip of the iceberg of my hyper-optimistic madness. I mentioned them mainly to differentiate them from the stale has beens that failed to qualify and this group of U-17's that are the subject of this thread. Apart from Taitague, who I really shouldn't have included, I would call-up everyone I mentioned, and possibly a few more uncapped promises, for November friendlies. Color me crazy. Also I don't consider caps for the National Team the only measurement of seasoning. Just to take McKennie, for example, I would currently take his performance and potential over Jozy and MB combined.

My post was in reply to @Master O who said "I think the USA is bad enough right now that even qualifying for Qatar is looking unlikely," in a PBP thread about a U17 quarterfinal loss to England, which is, in itself risible. But since you vehemently agreed with his post, and have gone to the trouble of digging up an old profile to spread rainbows and sunshine, I'd just as soon reply to your points.

Nothing. What does USYNT U17 vs. England have to do with the USMNT being bad in 2022 qualifying?

The second. Actually, I didn't brag about them doing well but contrasted their performance with the rest of CONCACAF, who are, after all, our opponents in qualifying and the subject of the OP.

I'm glad you brought up Colombia because Juan Fernando Quintero, at 21 scored the winning goal in a group stage match in 2014. Granted, he didn't start but do you really believe he wouldn't have a started a couple of US matches? And he is hardly a world beater on the international stage. If Sargent has a couple of banner seasons in the BL. might he not start a game or two at 21 given our relative weakness at CF?
Your mention of "Pulisic this and Pulisic that" contradicts your argument anyway. There is no way in hell he would not have started every US match (at 20) had we qualified for 2018. Some would argue we have kids in our pipeline that might reach or exceed his level. I don't necessarily agree with that but correlating a QF loss with our lack of talent and development (when Pulisic's squad went three and out in 2015) is imbecilic.
For the record the group of guys I listed have an average age of 23. Throw in the inevitable "vets" that will round out the squad and it will likely be older than the Belgian side that demolished us in 2014.
Who is Hector Lozano? If you mean Hirving, why would I care about him? I don't consider Chucky to be the Gold Standard of World Youth Footballers, although I suspect you may. Why not bring up Mbappe, Dembele, Sancho, and several others that without a doubt will be part of 2022 qualifying and are much younger?
If our best prospects have a ceiling of Lozano, though, I may well slit my wrists.
Ciao.

edit: If Jordan Siebatcheu makes the France senior team, more power to him. He is on the record, though, of showing interest in playing for the US.

 

sadly this is just one of those times where you will see that I am right and swear you never said any of this. In a case like this facts are so important so when you wiff on the basics its tough to follow you.

you want to call them up for the november friendlies...good idea...they are playing just one match..facts are ur friends and the one match couldn't mean less it will be an interim coach and there may be a new us soccer pres/td/coach by the next friendlies so it really is a waste of time.

pulisic is 19 its not hard to look at his bday and he would be 19 at the world cup next year. again...read...then come up with ur argument...pulisic is the oddity not the norm.

the group with the average age...is because you listed guys that have less then zero shot in five years.

I realize its offensive to mention mexico or a mexican player but lozano can play, and nobody on the us u17/20 group should be compared to guys like mbappe/dembele.

 

You win. Well played. Let me know when you get bored with with the YNT forum, please.

 

I know I hate it when people actually read what people say instead of think its smart because they put numbers in it and named fancy players....not everyone actually reads to see if its even true/possible.

 

what are you missing with him is there are clear changes that happen between U17 and USMNT and big time club football.....its a real question if he'll be able to overcome them, and lets not forget overcome pulisic...who plays the same position.

 

If a player is in the same stratosphere as CP, then they'll both be on the field for us. That's silly.