PBP: U.S. U17s vs. England, QF Round, 10/21/17, 10:30 a.m. ET

lol yeah the lack of pick up soccer is why england beat the us.

 

All on him? I definitely don't agree.

Partly on him. It was a bad punch, but Sands was ball-watching, not marking Brewster, and Gloster started the whole sequence with two bad plays.

At most 2 or 3 of those saves were routine. He made 5 or more that goalies could easily mess up. Most US goalies at these youth tournaments are among our worst players. I don't know why people are complaining when we have a good goalie. No 17 year old goalie does everything extremely well.

 

They had better first touch, off the ball movement, and generally better dribbling skill. Where do you think that’s learned mainly?

Why are American kids so much better at basketball skills than other countries? It’s pretty obvious why

 

EngLAND u17 was more professional, as expected. Their wingers were better than our fullbacks and their central attackers beat our D mids. Our CBs weren't their best but the loss isn't on them. Also our attackers didn't finish today. On another day we lose by one but no way this USA team should have been favored on paper so I can't be upset or even troubled by the result. Good on England U17 and now we assess our chess and move on.

Guys who had a good event in general:

Sargent, Goslin, Weah, Carleton, Durkin, Dest, Acosta(in his limited minutes was effective)

Guys who were ok:
Vassilev, Gloster, Sands, Garces, Booth, Akinola

Guys who struggled, especially against strong teams:
Lindsey, Ferri, Watts and of course the manager Hackworth


The run was decent. Everyone thought this group would make it out of the group and have a good chance to win an elimination game but no one thought they would win. I think they were 50/50 in some books to make the final 4 or final 8 so maybe they under-performed a bit but in all, I'm satisfied.


It's a marathon, not a sprint.


The likely outcome from this group is 3 or 4 good pros with one stud and several future professionals in a field other than soccer.

 

Just a complete difference in class between these two teams.

No pulisic in this age group, which is a way too high bar to look for of course, but the us has to find 4 or 5 more of him to really turn a corner.

 

Also, Carleton will need to find a new aspect to his game to be a good pro. Hope he can.

 

I was entertained, which is good.

Too bad we couldn't finish one or two of our chances in the 1st half. Might have been a different match had we been able to get one back.

Difference in the game was pretty clear with their front line vs. our back. The speed and skill difference was wide. Durkin and Sands are going to be solid pros, but mismatched at times if they can stay at the NT level. The outside backs just weren't good enough at all. Watts I doubt we'll see much of. Gloster has a lot of work to do, but he's a LB in the US, so there's that.

I guess Dest was just not 90 minutes fit. Otherwise Watts over Dest was an atrocious call. Dest (while a bit schizophrenic) clearly upgraded the side in all facets.

Boy, Hackworth put Booth in a tough spot. Doesn't give him but 10 minutes of run the 1st 4, and then throws him in as an isolated lone D-Mid vs. England in a Q-Final. And got about what you'd expect. I like the kid's game, but he's not a lone-Dmid against any side, let alone this one. Hard to rate.

Ferri. Why? This kid makes me want to go on an overreact rant about just about everything. Why? Why?

Carleton is going to be an interesting prospect. It's going to depend a lot on the quality around him, the quality of the opponent, and the coach putting him in spots to make a difference. We don't have a great track record in developing players like him. You'd hope Tata can help him, but he's given him 2 minutes all year, so...

Weah should be an asset going forward. He's good enough now to impact games and should be in a good spot with PSG to develop into a bigger threat.

On the other had, you got Akinola. I don't see it happening.

Sargent has the tools. Could have done better on his chances today. Hopefully he can impact Bremen within a pretty short time.

Garces I think is pretty good. Made some good saves and then had some not good enough. My only fear is he doesn't seem aggressive enough, and not just this game. Stuck on his goal line on a bunch of corners the were gettable. Just looks to shy away from contact a bit. Aggression is not something you can teach easily. At 17 it might be too late.

Indiana and the other kid (glad he got in) was too late to change anything.

 

Not sure what color "average American kid" is, but in So Cal nobody plays American Football for fan and soccer is played probably as often as basketball. Those West Coast kids looked great didn't they?

 

Agreed. His lack of physicality will be a problem. Hope he can gain some size and strength over the next few years.

 

Hear! Hear! In my town we have five soccer fields that are often filled with either organized games or pickup. One regular pick up game I play in has kids from 8 up to 60 in it. Those eights year olds rock by the time they hit high school because they've been playing against guys in their 20s for years.

I don't think I've ever seen a game on the one basketball court. The #2 sport isn't basketball or football. It's lacrosse.

 

Actually, I don't think that's true. With leaders like McBride and Jones saying Morris needs to grab the damn dog and get his ass to Bremen you've got a generation of solid retired and respected professionals who are leading fans to demand more. I actually think that having the former US nationals as opinion leaders will increase the pressure. Players like Pulisic, McKennie, Wright, Sargent, Klinnsman, etc who have gone to Europe already and understand what it means to be a professional I think they'll look at the soft tattooed millionaires and aspire to be better. I think any complacency just got burned out of them.

The next head of US SOCCER can't just keep hitting the R16 every World Cup outside of Europe. The bar is being raised.

 

Damn. I thought we'd be a LOT more competitive in this match.

 

this was the only u17 match i watch of this team....

to me its the same old problems....its the mentality and approach to the game that is lacking......

i'm trying to figure out how that doesnt come back to coaching...but i can't.

everything was so slow and methodical and diffident....down 2-0 ...they showed little urgency. from the opening whistle they were so passive!! it took 30 seconds for a us player to throw the ball in in the second half in a game they were trailing...how does that happen??

i realize the conditions wrre humid and muggy but there was little passion and urgency imo.

a lot of the players dont know how to move together with their team mates...thats the game...how do they not know the "easy soccer thinking" as jermaine jones would say? based on that i would say it is hard to prject any of these players being usmnt stadnouts in the future....it could happen but there isnt anything that points to that from this england game.

the technical side was acceptable(not great - what was with missing the goal by 20 yards on almost every shot??) ....considering they are teenagers.....but its the mental side that is poor. thing is, mentality is the easiest thing to fix, imo.....it's a matter of education.

it shows a lack of attention to detail...and thats why im not a fan of ramos and hackworth...their youth teams have a lot of fixable flaws! if its not about results then it has to mean doing things right...and that didnt happen.

 

they learn from playing at a higher level from the start. their leagues require more out of them as a kid when it comes to talent. they allow and push them to grow as individuals. our youth leagues are focused on participation trophies, everyone plays, people that excel are somehow offensive to others.

 

people just don't understand what they are watching. It has nothing to do with effort/urgency. their midfield dominated the us side they played a perfectly strategic match. They defended with 11 and attacked with all 10. They rarely made a bad pass and put pressure on the ball on defense forcing us players to pass the ball into areas where defenders were. It wasn't a passion/urgency/effort issue at all.

this is why our biggest problem with the sport is our lack of knowledge and the fact we don't know what we don't know which makes us arrogantly ignorant which is an amazing place to be.

Think about what you are saying 'the technical side was fine'....uh no it isn't. and 'considering they are teenagers'...you know that england had all teenagers right? their best player also got pulled back to dortmund to play with pulisic today....they were missing their most skilled attacker...we are SOOOO far behind technically.

 

agree its ironic we all complain about us players just being athletes and lacking skill; but charleton may be lacking literally all of the athletic tools to be a good usmnt player/pro.

 

I saw last game too. Foot speed of opponents was too fast for him defensively. Had to chase and grab a lot. Didn't read the game quickly offensively either. A lot of effort, belief, and some technical ability is what I saw. Could make him a reliable prospect while not possessing a lot of realistic upside.

If forced to choose, I'd have to say Vassilev would be a little better prospect because of his long passing and better general anticipation.

How many did you see of u17 youth team play before you projected him to make the 2022 roster at 20/21 years old already?

 

I major part of player development and their individual quality, IQ too, is does their quality carry over when there's more pressure and less time on the ball. You have to think/see/execute quicker. Fractions of a second.

And once again we saw the US generally fail when the pressure ramped up and the time on the ball lessened.

England's squad simply had more players who project to higher levels. The thinking/seeing/execution was a step or two above ours.

And while one might suggest these guys are pretty young and we have to wait and see how they develop over the next few years, one might also suggest their environments are already behind the England players and this generally, from 17-21, is when American players fall farther behind year by year.

 

I've seen about 10 games. You've seen 75 minutes, nearly everyone says he's one of the very best 01's. How could that be if he has so little upside? I don't even agree with your assessment of this game. We can agree to disagree, but I think you are very wrong about this, and just need to watch more of him, and you'll see.

 

To be a good pro? The kid is 17, and has shown well so far in the pro action he's gotten. I don't think being a good pro or even good USMNT player is a concern. The question for him is whether he just becomes a very good NT player who plays at a decent club in Europe or potentially a world class player. He's way beyond questions of whether he'll be a good pro.

I've said similar things to your first point though. People complain about our players not being skilled enough, only being athletes, and the most skilled player we've produced is not athletic enough for some people. There are plenty of players like Carleton in world football. Götze, Kagawa, Meyer, Silva, De Bruyne, Draxler. Oezil, James, Mata. Skill matters way more than speed and athleticism.

 

In fairness, Pulisic couldn’t lead his team to a win,just a win, @ the 2015 U-17 World Cup, of course he had an even worse coach and they landed in the “no doubt about it”, group of death. These kids did end up winning 3 of 5 and also landed in a very tough group (other than India).

When they were at ages 15 and 16 I think we all were excited about Pulisic and Wright, but few if any of us imagined Pulisic would accomplish what he has in the years since. Maybe guys like Carleton, Sargent, Weah and Sargent will do the same.

 

Maybe, maybe not. But too many think these guys will be rolling in top leagues and help carry us to a 2022 WC berth.

Anyhow, Sargent is the top prospect of the lot for me.

 

He was involved in all 5 goals in the last game and had the key pass on the only goal we had in this game so I'd say he has made a pretty strong statement about what his position is.

He's bad at connecting defending end to attacking end. NOt so good in the build up, to be more precise. Not the best passer. Pretty much all the rest of the mids are better passers. He had an assist - to Akinola I think ? - so maybe he improves that part of his game.

 

We'll see. The attrition rate is huge, just think about Julian Green and Zelalem, few would have guessed that at this point, young Pulisic would have essentially lapped them, to the third or fourth power. But at the same time, when I recall the US U-17 teams I was excited about over the years, there aren't many players I was excited over as these guys. Names like Adu, Renken, Gyau, Flores, come to mind, but not all that many, and none of the teams had as many guys I was excited about as this U-17 group.

Based on prior history, we can expect 1-3 of them to be relevant, and that's about what I'd expect, basically the high end of expectations: I think 2 to 3 of Sargent, Carleton, Weah, Durkin, Sands, Dest, Goslin, maybe Acosta, I'm probably forgetting some.

What excites me about WC '22 and the qualification cycle is that after the paucity of talent that came through the ranks after injuries and other issues had worked their way through circa 2008-2013, I feel like we've got a huge collection of potential players with senior level talent pushing through in the '14-'17 period, and hopefully they can stay healthy. If they can, these guys will be largely 21-27 come Qatar, and that is ideal for us if they can stay healthy. May be a bit ambitious to think much of this group will have a say in 2021 and 2022, but honestly, if they're anywhere near good enough, I don't see why not in regards to throwing them out there. The bulk of our players that choked last week are either old and not good enough, or about to exit their prime and not good enough. It's too soon for a lot of the kids, and especially these guys obviously, but if I'm the USMNT coach, I'm looking at the tapes of the practices and the games, and selecting a handful of guys 28 and up, to be the mentors for the kids, and then the whole rest of the team can largely be 23 and under. Most of the guys on the senior team need to be dumped on the side of the road and left to hitchhike their way back to a club focused career like France did after the 2010 debacle. We need to remove a lot of the complacency on this team before it infects the kids, and let the hungry kids, and the vets who play with hunger (like Dempsey) be their mentors as they play their way to Qatar.

 

They expect too much. He had the goal, assist or pre-assist (and real nice pre-assists that heavily influenced the goal, not just basic 1 yard sideward passes) on 8 of our 11 goals. Next best on the team was 4. He doubled everyone else up.

Is that not the job of a CAM? I don't understand.