U-23

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Pragidealist, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
  2. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    I'm sorry, but this list has the makings of the US failing to qualify again. A bunch of people on the list who aren't even playing first team football.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    My concern is that many of these players wont be released for qualifying and arent spending the time looking at the ones who will be.
     
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  4. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    That's the actual concern about the U-23s. It's great to get them some playing time and allow the North American and European groups to mix things up, especially if they're not in immediate contention for the full national team. But something will have gone wrong if players like Carter-Vickers, A. Robinson, Sargent, Weah, and Wright are released by their European clubs for the Olympic qualification competition.

    For better or worse, the national team will have to rely on North American players for the qualifying competition.
     
  5. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Brian Sciaretta has some interesting tweets bringing back some recent U-23 history. It belongs in this national team forum because it indicates the gap in the player pool in the early- to mid-1990s, although Sciaretta also indicates how Herzog made some poor player selections.

    Brian Sciaretta‏ @BrianSciaretta 4h4 hours ago
    Part of the challenge for US Soccer & the U-23 team will be keeping the camps relevant & competitive. At this age, players should be regulars with their clubs. The first Olympic prep camps 4 years ago (height of the “Missing Years), lacked quality. Many now even out of the game
    [​IMG]

    Brian Sciaretta‏ @BrianSciaretta 2h2 hours ago
    Here was a U-23 match roster for a friendly vs Denmark during the March 2015 international window (a year after the first camp & only months before qualifying). Note how virtually all (except Miller) are now not playing regular first division minutes. Many now retired

    [​IMG]

    Brian Sciaretta‏ @BrianSciaretta 2h2 hours ago
    These were horrible years during the “missing years” I’ve written about but there were better options - in MLS (who could have been released) - that were ignored. I remember asking Herzog about Tim Parker & Sean Davis who were impressing. He implied they weren’t on the radar
     
  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Sciaretta is a poor US soccer media guy who "they" are now controlling. Those are MLS heavy rosters and lineups with liga MX guys making up the rest. The problem with the pool at that time was the first two years, not the 3rd and 4th. That was the tail end of of the "missing era" that took things for granted. I've seen this spun multiple times but it was more about the cycle before this that produced little. Maybe why sean johnson is supposedly starting for us on thursday for conspiracy folks???

    The funny part is that Parker ultimately played in qualfiying and/or playoff and was what he is today... a poor mans jay demerit. Does anybody think Sean Davis is a game changer now? The bigger issue is the guy who poorly led our team in 2018 was the captain of that team in qualifying and was outplayed by a much younger player.

    His concern about the players getting minutes is naive and lacks an understanding of the talent of our players. How many of the players in 2003 would have been getting minutes in 2015 MLS let alone today? At the time, that was viewed as a great team that was definitely going to qualify, but while they had some big players, there were a lot of weaknesses.

    U.S. Under-23 MNT Roster -- vs. St. Kitts & Nevis -- CONCACAF Olympic Qualifying
    Name Pos. Ht. Wt. Birthdate Hometown Club/College
    Beckerman, Kyle M 5’11” 155 04/23/82 Crofton, Md. Colorado Rapids (MLS)
    Borchers, Nat D 6’2” 175 04/13/81 Pueblo, Colo. Colorado Rapids (MLS)
    Buddle, Edson F 6’1” 170 05/02/81 New Rochelle, N.Y. Columbus Crew (MLS)
    Carroll, Brian M 5’10” 150 07/20/81 Springfield, Va. D.C. United (MLS)
    Clark, Ricardo M 5’10” 150 05/10/83 Jonesboro, Ga. MetroStars (MLS)
    Convey, Bobby M 5’8” 150 05/27/83 Philadelphia, Pa. D.C. United (MLS)
    Countess, D.J. GK 6’2” 195 01/09/82 Sacramento, Calif. Dallas Burn (MLS)
    Eskandarian, Alecko F 5’9” 160 07/09/82 Montvale, N.J. D.C. United (MLS)
    Gaven, Eddie M 6’0” 145 10/25/86 Hamilton, N.J. MetroStars (MLS)
    Johnson, Eddie F 6’0” 170 03/31/84 Palm Coast, Fla. Dallas Burn (MLS)
    Lewis, Ricky D 6’0” 170 05/29/82 Spring, Texas L.A. Galaxy (MLS)
    Martino, Kyle M 5’10” 150 02/19/81 Westport, Conn. Columbus Crew (MLS)
    Onyewu, Oguchi D 6’3” 210 05/13/82 Olney, Md. R.A.A. Louviere (Belgium)
    Stokes, David D 6’3” 185 05/28/82 Dumfries, Va. D.C. United (MLS)
    Stone, Jordan M 5’9” 145 03/16/84 Allen, Texas Dallas Burn (MLS)
    Testo, David M 5’10” 160 08/07/81 Arden, N.C. Richmond Kickers (A-League)
    Warren, Doug GK 6’0” 185 03/18/81 Hoffman Estates, Ill. D.C. United (MLS)
    Wingert, Chris D 5’10” 160 06/16/82 Babylon, N.Y. St. John’s University
     
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  7. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The funny thing is his opinions are worthwhile enough to get him paid. If you'd like to tell him how stupid he is, maybe you can do it to his face. His handle is @bshredder.
     
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  8. AutoPenalti

    AutoPenalti Am I famous yet?

    Sep 26, 2011
    Coconut Creek
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Paging @bshredder lmao
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I can say what ever I want on here about Sciarreta and Doyle... I cant about bshredder and matrim.

    I think the honeymoon for small time journalist to get favorable treatment around here is ending. Doyle is a glofifed BS poster. Sciaretta used to be a quality reporter. He is driven by MLS now.

    On what basis is Josh Perez on this roster? He came home to MLS like so many posters suggest in YA when they cant get games. Training at Fiorenta or playing in the third division in italy seems better than whatever he is doing now.
     
  10. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you have any other suggested wingers? Does this Perez call up really matter that much if he isn't up to par?
     
  11. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Right. It's MLS- and Mexico-heavy squads that have to qualify the U-23s to the Olympics. It's a problem if the team doesn't have the depth that the 2000, 2004, or 2008 squads.

    Sean Johnson was 26 during the 2015/2016 qualification effort. He was a member of the squad during the prior Klinsmann-era Olympic qualification failure in 2012.

    Parker and Davis did not actually play in the CONCACAF qualification tournament, although Parker did start both matches during the playoff matches 6 months later against Colombia.

    MLS has definitely changed in the last 15 years. The 2004 team might have been luckier if it received 2 chances to qualify like the 2016 team, but we'll never know for sure.
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Akale? Can also play centrally. For all those league comparison folks, second team in Spain > loan to a second team level in USA.

    I am a fan of Perez and dont think Akale is a slam dunk, but have had a chance to watch him play in the last six months and liked what I saw. Just pointing out the biases in our system.
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    The team has much more depth in MLS now than in 2004. What it doesnt have is LD and DMB.

    Yes, that was the 2012 squad is what somebody referred to as the lost generation.

    Would either have helped? Neither has shown they were glaring omissions since then.

    The point was that much of that team wouldnt have been playing at that age in 2015. Not sure a second chance against a quality south american side would have made a difference. My recollection is that I paid to watch us lose on 0-4 to Mexico. The team didnt show much fight and doubt they would have gone to Colombia and gotten a draw.
     
  14. AutoPenalti

    AutoPenalti Am I famous yet?

    Sep 26, 2011
    Coconut Creek
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You do know that Sciarreta is @bshredder right?
     
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  15. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    x50.

    I will add one other thing. Take a look at what bshredder posted on twitter. I thought the U23 qualifying team for the olympics four years ago was pretty crummy, especially when taking into account unreleased players, but man, it was so so so so much worse than I remember. It was abysmal. If you don't like this roster/think it's not good enough to qualify, just compare it to dreck we trotted out for years ago early on in our first camps. Good God. No offense to the players but as Brian mentioned, some of the guys are in other careers now, and the ones that are still trying to hack it are almost across the board totally irrelevant to the USMNT, or even club soccer of any note. It's god awful. So those that are persisting in arguing that we still aren't anywhere worth noting several years down the line are just totally and completely wrong. Looking at the current U-23/U-20 rosters and then looking at them four years ago is like comparing Donovan's U17 semifinalists and comparing them to the disaster that was the '07 U17 squad. It's just beyond night and day. The U23's looked better in 2016 when some of the kids from the U20's in '15 joined up, but it still was quite a disappointing group.

    Regardless, pining away for qualifying for the olympics is kinda pointless to me w/teams not required to release players. At this point I just view the U23 camps as an opportunity to look at second tier players and see if they might be relevant for that given WC cycle a couple years down the line as anything more than depth (if that), am happy we got a few of our truly elite prospects, but if Sargent or Weah are available for the Olympics in 2020 it will likely mean something has gone badly wrong with their respective careers (granted there is the slight chance Bremen or PSG or whomever owns their signature at that point would like to see what kind of interest they draw in an olympic shop window, but I imagine them playing key roles with their squads, whomever they may be, will be far more important then the Olympics and in such a case, it's rare a team would want to release said players at the tail end of summer training camps).
     
  16. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The bias is yours, I suspect. If Perez was still on the roster for Fiorentina, not playing, you'd probably be supportive of him being called up. But since he's on an MLS roster, not playing, then it's a bias by the federation.
     
  17. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since he's not played anywhere it's hard to compare but I'd say MLS is a ways above Serie A III. Also because of not playing anywhere lately I have no idea how his form is.
     
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    There have always been biases in the system, while some would want you to believe it only occured from mid 2011 through 2016. I dont know what to tell you if you dont see them except that you are very uninformed.

    I'd argue that the period I mentioned before had the least bias in our modern history. Ties may have gone to non-MLS players or fringe players ignored but nothing like the blatant stuff Arena pulled.

    My view on those two players is based on watching them play. Unfortunately, I havent seen Perez play in a while because he just hasnt played. I think Akale is much better than Jonathan Lewis for example. Put another way, there seem to be all kinds of rules to eliminate foreign based players, but anything goes for domestic based players.

    All I want is the top 30-40 players at each age group to get looks. I dont care where they play. I dont think this has been happening for the USMNT in 2017 and now 2019 and now we are seeing it at youth levels... partly because average MLS players are taking up spots on the USMNT roster that reduces the spots on youth teams.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    After moving to LAFC last summer he played 29 mins in USL and 22 mins in MLS.

    Akale has 3 goals in 900+ mins in 22 of 29 games. He has the second most minutes of any player on the team listed as an amid or winger (another was promoted to the first team). Again, he isnt killing, but in rotation and has played well when he gets in.

    I really wish people would get away from this league comparison nonsense. If people want to do that then the top 4 or 5 countries should be the benchmark. MLS is second tier and USL is fourth tier at best.

    I'd prefer to actually pay attention to how teams/leagues play. The third division of Spanish football is a mix between second teams and grown men fighting for their jobs. The games are played at a high tempo as well as at high level technically and tactically.
     
  20. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, can’t respond now. I’m too busy being controlled by the MLS and waiting for my big $$ check(s) from Garber which must be lost in the mail
     
  21. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    The long and the short of it is the Olympics don't hold much importance in the 12 month a year internationalized world of professional soccer. No one makes $$$ from having their prized athletes play for...national pride. It's an every four year distraction for the USSF.
     
  22. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, everyone knows, relax.

    I don't think Herzog was anything above a very mediocre coach, but I don't think there were "many" better options in MLS. Sean Davis and Parker are decent players, but that team's still garbage even with those additions. Guys that retired (Dean), or are toiling in obscurity (Joya), had decent MLS minutes back then.

    That was the bottoming-out of the talent trough. Unsurprising that a mediocre coach didn't get anything out of them.
     
  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he were in Fiorentina's plans/close to significant first team minutes, it'd be sorta akin to Josh Sargent now. But, as we see with Weah, players get loaned for first-team minutes.

    Perez spent years down in Serie C with a well-known match-fixing team, and has come back to MLS to sit on the bench. Not exactly inspiring. Akale has a long history moving up the youth ranks of a top Spanish academy but is getting long-in-the-tooth for a "youth prospect". He might never break out, but considering the camp is in Spain, it seems dumb to fly out a failed prospect when there's another slightly-better prospect right in your backyard.

    And that's not to say that I'm in favor of giving minutes to failed highly-rated guys in general. Olusunde is here... why? At least Akale is local.
     
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  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I always take U23 rosters with a grain of salt. Clubs never need to release players to youth teams. They don't' even need a good reason. There are a lot of MLS games this weekend, for instance. You can go position by position and realize that there are a lot of options that aren't at the camp. Right back? Reggie Cannon of FCD, Kyle Duncan of NYRB, Brooks Lennon of NYRB...........the list goes on.

    So its fine that there's a little bit of "expanding the pool" callups at certain positions. No big deal.

    The horrible truth is that a lot of the players that are at the camp simply aren't needed by their clubs. Its a fairly bad sign that some of these guys were released by their teams when they have club games. They're being told that they're not needed on matchday. Josh Perez is an example........................
     
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  25. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Minor quibble.
     

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