News: Tuesday, Aug 08 , 2017

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Fiosfan, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you realize that the USMNT just won the regional concacaf tournament with a starting lineup that featured 100% north american based players and zero euro based players right?

    i dont think that the usmnt going on a deep run must mean that they have a euro heavy lineup...never said that.
     
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  2. I Touchdown There

    Med
    United States
    Jun 15, 2017
    #77 I Touchdown There, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Professional Football
    College Football
    NBA
    College Basketball
    MLB
    NHL

    Not necessarily in that order. But soccer trails all of them right now with regards to popularity. And also, before you make the argument, make no mistake about it that College Basketball and Football are their own entities.

    This also doesn't take into account the popularity of High School football, which is more popular than even MLB or NBA in certain pockets of this country. Or sports like Tennis or Golf, which aren't team sports, but are both at least as popular as soccer. The landscape in the US is so much different than any other country on earth.

    I'd say the fact that 2 professional women's leagues have already failed and the NWSL avg attendance is just over 4K (taking out the Portland Thorns anomaly 16k per game) is proof that a dominant national team has little to no impact on the popularity of a domestic league. I mean, if you want to bring the women's game into the discussion. The NWSL surviving to its 4th season was considered historic. And it really only survived because the US fed subsidizes the salaries of the WNT players and the top three teams in the league are subsidized by affiliated MLS teams.

    The guys that watch the EPL but ignore MLS aren't going to start watching MLS just because the US hosts the World Cup. Those fans want to watch the best players. So until those players are here in the US, their allegiance won't shift.

    The league might see a mild bump in attendance numbers fro the casual fan that tunes in every 4 years for the World Cup. But the number of people who were strictly World Cup watchers who latch on to the league on a permanent basis won't be enough to significantly move the needle. We've seen this already.
     
  3. I Touchdown There

    Med
    United States
    Jun 15, 2017
    1) You do realize that more US soccer fans watch the Euros and Copa American than the Gold Cup right?

    2) You also realize that those fans understand that the Gold Cup (especially in the off year) is a meaningless tournament.

    3) You also realize that this Gold Cup was primarily a "B" tournament for all of the top sides in the region?

    4) You also realize that the majority of fans in this country were lambasting the US for how poorly those MLS guys played against the likes of Martinique and Nicaragua.

    If anything, this most recent Gold Cup did more to damage the reputation of the MLS.

    Lets look at our best starting 11. 4 of our 4 starting defenders play in England, England, Germany and Germany respectively. Our top midfielder plays in Germany. One of our two likely starting strikers also plays in Germany. Of the 4 remaining field player slots, the only ones that are sure fire going to MLS guys are Bradley, Altidore and Nagbe. Two of which, the average US fan desperately wants to see off the team all together. And now you are officially on ignore.
     
  4. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    I dunno. I think the dogpiling, flamethrowing, overstatement and superiority-dancing going on here makes everybody sound pretty stupid. It's like a band of chimps.

    I certainly believe the credibility of the national team helps the credibility of MLS. And the national team is something of a billboard for American soccer, obviously. In a vague way, Americans absorb an ambient international opinion of American soccer - and World Cup performance affects that. Sure that's a tough needle to move but I think even the Klinsmann show (ugh) made many casual fans and internationals think the US was improving, somehow. Certainly many of those casual fans and internationals have told me that. I think even Pulisic may help MLS - because he's helping to change the attitude that Americans Can't Do Soccer.

    Does it change things overnight? No. Does Nat success change everybody's mind? No. But picking up or energizing fans and sponsors and influencers and owners here and there adds up, keeps the ball rolling in the right direction, a virtuous cycle.

    Do you explain the relative success of MLS without the national team and our World Cup performances? It's not just Pizza Hut Park, Beckham, NFL owners, hipster Tifo and marches to the match. US National team credibility has already been a factor, IMO, and we haven't come close to winning the World Cup. You damn dirty apes.
     
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  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #80 Paul Berry, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Basketball and basketball are both basketball. Football and football are both football.

    NWSL attendances got a significant bump and they got a TV contract with over 100,000 watching games on Lifetime. NWSL attendances have dropped off again this season as it seems they've failed to maintain the momentum. Would this have happened if the WNT had won The Olympics? Anyway the WNT still regularly attracts crowds of over 20,000.

    MLS lost $250 million in it's first 5 years and had to be bailed out at the last minute by one of it's biggest investors. A few hundred thousand in bonus salaries to promote NWSL seems cheap by comparison. Maybe if they called it "Allocation Money" it would be a bit less controversial.

    I pretty much agree, although the number of Premier League/La Liga/Bundesliga (and Liga MX) shirts you see at MLS games would imply that it is possible to support teams more than one league. But you're right, I don't think hardened anti-MLS Euro-fans would suddenly flock to MLS games.

    Post World Cup Average Attendances
    2007 +8.20%
    2011 +7.20%
    2015 +12.70%
    Expansion teams made some of that contribution but those increases were significantly more than in the intervening years.

    "move the needle?"
    I've worked on several projects called "move the needle" and it means different things to different people. A 5% increase would be major, 2 or 3% would still be significant.

    I'll revisit this. Take the Dutch. Do you think having their best players moving abroad at 22, 23 years-old diminishes the credibility of their domestic league? I would argue that it increases credibility and that people want to go and see the next Gullit, Bergkamp and Robben. If the best young MLS stars go to Europe and succeed in the top leagues maybe people will want to go out and watch the next generation as they develop.

    What Christian Pulisic means to America by the way is that this country that can produce international class stars.
     
  6. I Touchdown There

    Med
    United States
    Jun 15, 2017
    No, it really isn't. And your belief that NFL and College Football or NBA and NCAA basketball are the same thing demonstrates a certain level of ignorance to the sporting culture that exists in America. There are literally millions of NBA fans that don't watch a second of college basketball and vice versa. The same can be said about the NFL vs NCAA football. While there is definite overlap between these groups, make no mistake that the majority of their fan bases are very distinct from one another.


    The bolded part is factually wrong. Again, excluding the Portland anomaly, league wide attendance from 2015 to 2016 saw a bump of 500 fans per game. And half of the teams saw a decrease in attendance. The "significant" bump you probably think happened was due to Orlando joining the league in 2016.

    I'm not arguing that there is a market for the Women's national soccer team. But that clearly doesn't translate to the club game.

    It's one thing when an investor doubles down. Its another thing when current investors don't want to actually invest in making the league survive and rely on the federation to ensure their investment survives. Its apples vs. oranges.


    I think you are grossly understating the importance of expansion teams (which have all been home runs in the attendance game) relative to the supposed World Cup bump.


    This is a specious argument at best. What other options does the Dutch sports fan have with regards to their entertainment dollars? Football is in their DNA. There have been books written about it. To try and compare Dutch sporting culture to the US sporting culture is moronic.

    How many people go to watch the NBA G-League in the hopes of seeing the next Dion Waiters? How many people are going to their local AA baseball stadium excited to see the next Mike Trout? How many people are going to AHL games in the hopes of seeing the next Claude Giroux?

    We don't need to imagine what ifs here. We already know how the American sports fan's mind works. We want to see the best players playing on our teams. That is reality. Imagining that the US sports culture isn't what it is makes your entire argument a non starter.
     
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  7. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Liar!
     
  8. I Touchdown There

    Med
    United States
    Jun 15, 2017
    LOL he had replied to a post before I had even finished typing. He's on ignore now...promise.
     
  9. Tom Ado

    Tom Ado Member

    Jun 25, 2015
    #84 Tom Ado, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Unless you're limiting the comparison to just NHL vs MLS, or allowing hockey's immense popularity in the Northeast/Upper Midwest (contrasted with its relative obscurity everywhere else) to skew the national comparison, the two sports are roughly neck-and-neck nowadays IMO. Compare TV ratings for all non-World Cup soccer (International soccer, Liga MX, EPL, Champions League, La Liga, MLS, etc.) vs non-Olympic hockey (playoff and regular season), and soccer comes out on top a lot more often that one would assume. Considering the popularity of sports can vary from region to region, it's probably best to sort them by tiers rather than a definitive ranking.

    National sport
    Pro Football

    Other established sports
    Pro Basketball, College Football, Baseball, Men's College Basketball

    Secondary sports (not as established as the Top 3 sports, but relevant enough to garner regular live event coverage on major national works):
    Soccer, Ice Hockey, Auto Racing, Golf

    Niche sports (sporadic live event coverage centered around a handful of big events throughout the year):
    MMA (big PPVs), Boxing (big PPVs), Tennis (four slams), Horse Racing (Triple Crown)


    Of the sports listed in the "secondary" category, soccer has the youngest TV audience by far, so it fares better in the key demos that networks and advertisers covet. Soccer has a very fragmented TV audience, and outside the big event-viewing international tournaments, that's a viewing habit I don't see changing anytime soon, as long as the US audience continues to have the shear amount of matches at its disposal that it does.
     
  10. I Touchdown There

    Med
    United States
    Jun 15, 2017
    I still think Hockey is ahead of soccer, but I agree with you that it is close, and that is the first of the "Big 4" that MLS will catch and surpass. In terms of media coverage, while hockey fans often complain about a lack of coverage in national and even local media, it is still mountains more than soccer on any level. Outside of the World Cup or Barca vs. Real, soccer very rarely gets a mention in the media. For that reason, I think soccer still trails hockey in this country. And that might just come down to father time replacing news directors, producers, etc. in studios and newsrooms around the country.

    But you aren't wrong. It's really close.
     
  11. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hockey is not nearly as popular as it's fans would like it to be. Think about it. Hockey is basically non-existent on Fox, ESPN/ABC, and CBS. I think hockey is a great sport, I grew up playing street hockey, and in a "Hockey Hot Bed." The fact is that it has barriers that limit it's participation (Very High Cost, concussion fears, and not a lot of college scholarships). I liken it to Lacrosse, which has been the "sport of the future" for my entire life (again grew up in one of thee epicenters of the sport).

    IMO within the next 10 years Soccer will be in thew top 3/4 sports in the US, if it isn't already. Within the next 10 years the popularity of MLS and the sport in general will continue to sky rocket and garner even more "Main Stream" coverage and acceptance.
     
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  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    to sum up, the single event that could increase MLS popularity the most is a USMNT world cup win.

    do people actually disagree with this?????

    If so, what other event could possibly be better for MLS than a USMNT world cup win???

    if the mls all-stars beat real madrid???? LOLo_O

    (i personally dont think it would matter much if the theoretical usmnt lineup that won a world cup was majority MLS or europ-based....although the theorteical bump in MLS popularity would probably be higher if there were a majority of MLS based players in that lineup...but my persoal opinion is that both bumps would be similar)

    now, whether MLS can really make a usmnt world cup win more likely is up for debate. furthermore, the best way for MLS to make a usmnt world cup win more likely is definitely up for a lot of debate.

    I think MLS can do a lot to make the US player pool better or worse and is the single most important force in determining how good the US player pool is or isnt at this current time.

    My personal take is that MLS has moved away from sheparding the USMNT and the US player pool the way it used to. In the beginning of MLS, ANY and EVERY US-eligible player that showed even a glimmer of national team promise got an immediate and long-term chance to prove themselves in MLS with extended playing time and a general willingness to get that player (if successful) to Europe and a big 4 league.

    Now, I feel like the general feeling in MLS is different....it's more about the league itself. A lot of owners arent even american anymore...they certainly dont have the usmnt as a top priority (even though if they own an MLS team they should!)....and there are just so many american players now playing professionally that I think new prospects dont really have the rarity they once had...they arent seen as being as precious as they once were. MLS has become much more wasteful with usmnt prospects than it once was and the league doesnt give much playing time to these types of players as it once did. There's a laundr list of american players who showed promise in MLS but havent really ever been a starter or gotten extended minutes in MLS and thus are not usmnt prospecets anymore......Part of this is that the leaugue is now buying up foreign players ....and it makes it harder for the prospects to play now. it's complicated. theres not one reason why i think MLS isnt supporting the USMNT the way it once was. and it doesnt come down to the national team manager's relationship with MLS...that is important but only a small part of what i am talking about.

    Do i know for certain what MLS needs to change to help the USMNT be better or even that it would be "worth it" from a financial perspective? no, not exactly. i have ideas but i'm not trying to say i know these things for sure. I do know that MLS is allergic to even small risks and that they probably see doing things to help the USMNT as "risky" so they have moved away from that. I also know that leagues and countries like germany, spain, england etc support there domestic players and national teams way more than MLS does...and its not a coincedence that those countries have been at the top of the food chain lately.
     
  13. whiteonrice04

    whiteonrice04 Member+

    Sep 8, 2006
    The way I remember it was the Wilfs had a competing bid against the owners of the Loons. There were 2 separate bids for an MLS team in MN and MLS chose the Loons bid.
     
  14. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Same day? Really?

    Very same day?

    No.

    There are no epiphanies among American sports fans, much less among Eurosnobs.

    Everything that has happened since Suwon has built upon each incremental gain that preceded it.

    I know it's hard for the kids to understand, but waaaaaaaaaaay back fifteen years ago, we did not live in this gilded age where everything is possible and USL teams have TV deal so. It was not always like this. A lot of people have done a lot of work and suffered a lot of frustration to move the ball ever so slightly toward the goal.

    Nothing will double or triple overnight. That's an infantile point of view and shows a shocking lack of understanding of human nature.

    Now, it IS true that USMNT success is good for the game in this country and has a knock-on effect for all of the game's entities and stakeholders, to varying degrees. But so are stadiums and success against Mexican clubs and signings of recognizable, quality players and accessible TV deals and lower level success stories.

    All of those things contribute (as they all have over the last 20 years). But none of them resulted in an "Ah-hah!" moment. And you seriously underestimate the ability of Europosers and snobs to pivot to other tacks when their thesis statement - that American soccer in general and MLS in particular aren't worthy of anything but scorn and derision - is threatened by a little thing like "evidence to the contrary."
     
  15. whiteonrice04

    whiteonrice04 Member+

    Sep 8, 2006
    #90 whiteonrice04, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    I am too lazy to look this all up but I think this is massively wrong. What the USWNT players did recently to try to make their case was compare their world cup year to a non world cup year for the USMNT. This is a major intentional misrepresentation of facts. Pretty confident the USMNT get higher ratings, attendances, sponsorships and merchandise selling when you compare major tournaments to major tournaments. Also, of course USWNT would get higher Olympic ratings than the men considering our men haven't made it in a while and it is a youth tournament for men (U23) and a full national team tournament for women (basically a repeat of the world cup). Therefore, Olympics cannot be used as a comparison. Outside of the Olympics have the USWNT ever had a non world cup tournament that would even compare to the recent Copa America for the USMNT?

    I understand the 2015 women's world cup final was one of the highest rated soccer matches in US TV history. Thats one game. I am talking about comparing averages. What is the USWNT friendly rating compared to USMNT?

    Edit: so I did look it up:
    English language TV ratings
    The USMNT in 2014 WC group play average = 13.4 million viewers
    USWNT in 2015 WC group play average = 4.2 million

    USMNT full 2014 WC average = 14.1 million
    USWNT full 2015 WC average (including 25million final) = 8.1

    USMNT 2015 friendly average = 567k
    USWNT 2015 friendly average = 333k

    Numbers tell a different story. USMNT get around double the viewership
     
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  16. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    #91 Stan Collins, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    I agree, and I think MLS should be given a little more credit than the line seen here has in terms of being 'ready' to take advantage of such an event than we have. Demographically, the 'sea change' in attitudes towards the sport has basically already happened, and MLS is already at the point where it could offer 8, 10, 12, maybe even 15 million dollars for a player that everybody in American sports land knows with full expectation that would be profitable. And everybody in America sports land would know such a player if we won the WC.

    The crazy part is not really that, it's the part where MLS and its teams are supposed to defer their ambitions for generations until the day when that WC win happens. MLS would not exist today if they did that. Also if MLS was just the AA farm team for the National Team (with Wherever, Europe being the AAA farm team), the National Team would never be a contender--you might produce a bunch of players with decent talent (without the academies that are only funded by MLS's separate strategic ambitions, I doubt you ever get anywhere better than 'decent' talent), but they'd likely have no rapport, and that's a real problem in soccer that seldom gets addressed in these discussions.

    Indeed, if we're referring to 'popular' by pure headcount of interested people, I think Liga MX and the NHL are pretty close to neck-and-neck by themselves. The main thing obscuring this being the 'non mainstream-ness' of the Spanish-speaking Liga MX audience and the fact that the NHL fan's income is much greater than Liga MX. But while the NHL gets better ratings for Stanley Cup Finals, Liga MX does better week-to-week.

    But once you consider how little the likely overlap is between the viewers who regularly watch LMX in Spanish and those that watch the EPL in English, then throw in the various other properties that can get non-negligible viewers from time to time (Champions League, La Liga, Bundesliga, MLS, WCQs and other internationals), I think the difference is not order-of-magnitude stuff, but it's reasonably clear.
     
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  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't understand the statements in bold?
     
  18. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    1) MLS isn't realistically going to fund academies solely for the National Team's benefit, the business model requires MLS profit.
    2) No team cohesion, no familiarity and relationships.
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But US Soccer subsidizes the USDA doesn't it?

    One other question, why do you think MLS academies won't produce any more than "decent" talent. One of Alphonso Davies, Andrew Carleton and Weston McKennie show signs of becoming more than "decent" though we won't know for certain until they mature. Tyler Adams is rumored to be a target for Everton and I'm sure there are other academy products being monitored by European clubs.
     
  20. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    They can to a degree, but they can't provide the free-to-play academies that MLS has.

    What I'm saying is that those guys are all being developed by MLS teams that are thinking about their own profit. If MLS was thinking only about the National Team, and couldn't make money on producing those guys, they wouldn't have provided the investment.
     
  21. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Somehow EPL manage so I think there are other plans that are more achievable. IMO MLS should maintain but intensify their current pre WC strategy. Purchase WC bound players. Obviously USMNT players are a must but also a fair number from actual contenders.
     
  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So MLS is no different to anywhere else.
     
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  23. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    RIght. The NT doesn't drive MLS, but the reverse, and if you look around the world, the countries that are good, the development was never really for the purpose of developing a National Team. That's not how it works, it works when clubs develop guys for their own profit and get good at it, and the NT gets good as a side effect.
     
  24. jayd8888

    jayd8888 Member+

    Aug 22, 2006
    Denver CO
    This page did nothing for my headache.
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what I've been trying to tell him.

    He believes that most soccer leagues are run as charitable institutions that work for the greater good of mankind, except for evil MLS with it's damn closed entity structure.
     
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