Tuesday 13 Aug 2019

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Stuart95, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Stuart95

    Stuart95 Member+

    Mar 11, 2012
    Stafford, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS Week 23 Review: Josef Martinez breaks record amid scoring frenzy
    https://www.prosoccerusa.com/mls/ml...f-martinez-breaks-record-amid-scoring-frenzy/

    Real Salt Lake terminate Petke's contract
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/real-salt-lake/story/3919332/real-salt-lake-terminate-petkes-contract

    MLS coach Mike Petke fired for spewing anti-gay slurs at referees
    https://www.outsports.com/homophobi...ch-mike-petke-homophobic-slurs-real-salt-lake

    Atlanta United fans ejected from supporters’ section during protest
    https://www.dirtysouthsoccer.com/20...jected-from-supporters-section-during-protest

    New MLS policy on political signs riles up fans in Pacific Northwest
    https://www.sacbee.com/sports/mls/article233789937.html

    The Timbers Army is Right: MLS Must Rescind Its Ban on the Iron Front Symbol
    https://www.portlandmercury.com/blo...must-rescind-its-ban-on-the-iron-front-symbol

    MLS, Canadian Championship, or Both?
    https://www.mountroyalsoccer.com/2019/8/12/20802262/mls-canadian-championship-or-both

    Vela sets Mexican goals mark, defends MLS move
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/lafc/story/3919673/vela-sets-mexican-goals-markdefends-mls-move

    LAFC sign Ecuadorian left back Diego Palacios
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/08/12/lafc-sign-ecuadorian-left-back-diego-palacios

    Transfer Talk: Pair of MLS clubs in play for Sturridge's signature
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...ransfer-talk-pair-of-mls-clubs-in-play-for-sturridges-signature

    Report: PSG's Edinson Cavani to become Inter Miami's first showcase signing
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019...-become-inter-miamis-first-showcase-signing-0
     
  2. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
     
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  3. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
     
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  4. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rephrase to "Kick Gun Violence" or "Give Gun Violence a Red Card". Topical.
     
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  5. Stuart95

    Stuart95 Member+

    Mar 11, 2012
    Stafford, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't typically comment on the news, just post it but here goes.

    MLS seems inconsistent here, they praise Bedoya and make him player of the week (a week in which Kei Kamara scores a hat trick by the way). Then stadium staff confiscate these gun violence banners. I don't really get that; unlike the antifa issue, there's not a defendable counter-position ... hard to be pro gun violence.

    However, at the same game, there were some political banners. My favorite was a Safety Sign like: "Yankee Stadium, Nazi Free for Zero Days." My guess is that a poorly defined policy, coupled with nice but poorly trained staff led to blanket seizures of signs. Had they been "El Paso/Dayton Strong" banners, they probably would've been OK.

    Regardless, MLS should see that they've created an issue here and address it; there were lots of articles on this over the last weekend. I'd hate to lose banners at games ... they're one of my favorite parts of the atmosphere.
     
  6. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I would also suggest there may be the issue of how the rules get applied as it trickles down from up high to the hundreds of staff at the different stadium who are making a call on the fly. Surely along the way it's like the telephone game and these poor souls at the front line will catch flak as they employ different interpretations of the rule.

    I suspect we'll have to tough it out this season and the league will seek a reset over the winter.
     
  7. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    The fundamental problem is that there is no sharp line for what is political. There's "very political" and then "not at all political" but also a continuum in-between. Wherever you draw the line there will be banners that fall on one side of the line and banners on the other that seem much the same.
     
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  8. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    #8 don gagliardi, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
    Agree that "political" is not defined in the MLS Fan Code of Conduct, but that does not mean it cannot be defined.

    Discussion of a U.S.Supreme Court decision from last year (not controlling for MLS because of the state action doctrine, but nonetheless instructive on this point):

    . . . Minnesota’s ban on “political” apparel fails even that “forgiving” [reasonableness] test, the [7-2] majority concluded, because both the text of the law and the state’s interpretations of it provide so little guidance about what kind of apparel may or may not be worn to the polls . . . After lamenting the lack of guidance in the Minnesota law at issue, the court then tried to provide a little guidance of its own. While making clear that it was not endorsing the constitutionality of such laws, the court noted that other states restrict apparel at the polls “in more lucid terms”: California bars signs and apparel that advocate for or against candidates or measures on the ballot, and Texas prohibits apparel “relating to a candidate, measure, or political party appearing on the ballot, or to the conduct of the election.” The court also appeared to confirm in a footnote that states “may prohibit messages intended to mislead voters about voting requirements and procedures.” But here, the court concluded, Minnesota has not provided the kind of “objective, workable standards” needed to pass muster under the First Amendment . . . [Emphasis added]

    https://www.scotusblog.com/2018/06/...nesota-ban-on-political-apparel-at-the-polls/

    Secondarily, MLS' enforcement of its vague policy is arbitrary and capricious. Bedoya is unpunished, and even rewarded, for demanding that Congress act to end gun violence while he is playing during a game, but Atlanta fans are forcibly removed from their stadium for expressing the exact same sentiment.
     
  9. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    These conversations always go off the rails when someone leaves the fact based universe.

    Why do people try to "trick" us? What's the point?
     
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  10. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
  11. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I'm convinced

    I dont think there can be any reasonable person who opposes America being great. So a big old MAGA flag would certainly be all right, wouldn't it?

    And as long as we're giving a pass to "facts" then clearly a " Abortion Stops a Beating Heart" banner would pass muster as well.

    How about "Abstinance prevents STI's hung on the railing? Someone care to tell that THAT is untrue?

    We either have to allow it all or ban it all, and the factuality or lack thereof involved is irrelevant

    MLS screwed up on Bedoya. That does not mean the whole policy has to be junked. Leave the crap outside and focus on supporting your team instead of dragging this crap - no matter how righteous it makes you feel - into a place where it simply doesnt belong
     
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  12. soccermilitant

    soccermilitant Member+

    Jan 14, 2009
    St.paul
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    political talk is only ok if its liberalism. I doubt many people here would have different tune if it was an pro NRA banner
     
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  13. POdinCowtown

    POdinCowtown Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 15, 2002
    Columbus
    Some people find it hard to resist any opportunity to signal virtue. "Gun violence" doesn't really exist but it's used as a shorthand for violence committed by people using guns. Everyone sane is opposed to mass murder but guns are frequently used for self defense and deterrence. The people who make banners denouncing "gun violence" are really just calling for some form of gun control. Anything from outright prohibition to bans on "assault weapons" to background checks, etc.

    Anyway, it's certainly political and MLS games aren't really the place for such banners. Same with the iron front flags and banners.
     
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  14. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    My position is content-neutral.
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The NRA does not support gun violence. Don't be stupid.
     
  16. morrissey

    morrissey Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 18, 2000
    West Los Angeles, Calif
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well.................................their propaganda channel is essentially wall to wall fearmongering and beware the other(ism). So if that motivates one of their accolytes to commit mass murder they kinda do.

    Cheers.
     
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  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This clause makes no sense given dictionary definitions of all the words in it.

    Assuming you are writing in English.

     
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  18. PhillyMLS

    PhillyMLS Member+

    Oct 24, 2000
    SE PA
    I'm not wading into the political aspect of it, I'm just sort of wondering if the supporter's groups would tell people that they can only bring signs into the section they approve of. For instance, I'm assuming a "pro-traditional marriage" or "stop illegal immigration" sign wouldn't be allowed. If someone was part of the Communist Party of the US, could they fly a flag in the supporter's section or would that be removed due to it not being what the supporter's group believes in?

    What I'm really curious about is do these supporter's groups (and by that I'm probably more talking about the leadership and not the whole of the group) that are mad that they aren't allowed to display flags and banners that are causes they believe in allowing that same freedom to their membership? To me, a supporter's group is there as a collection of individuals that are brought together by one thing: their love of the club. You can have rules on how you should treat individuals within that group (and the don't be a dick to people different from you is a pretty common sense one) but you shouldn't interject your political values onto the membership. My feeling is that when you have banners or flags that are political (and Iron Front and Antifa flags are political flags to certain people, just like a Confederate flag would be to others) you are making a statement, whether intentional or not, that the group as a whole supports it.
     
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *sigh* Come on Bill, I know you know better. Politics and sports have been intertwined literally since the Ancient Olympics.

    That's not to say that we're on the right path with these MLS issues or anything. I'm just pointing out that all the talk of "going to a game to get away from politics" or "politics doesn't belong at the game" ignores the reality of politics having always been at games in some form or another (at least at high amateur/pro levels). We can't remove politics, we can only figure out the best way to deal with the politics that are going to be there.
     
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  20. wantmlsphilly

    wantmlsphilly Member+

    Aug 2, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sorry but I'm fine with no banners and yes MLS gave Bedoya a pass. Voting for player of the week is 25% fan vote and 75% by soccer writers though and not picked by MLS directly. Personally I've never seen a political group advocate for "gun violence" but I have seen groups use it politically. Mudding the waters and making signs part of a human rights issue is only dividing people and getting nothing actually done. If a customer is paying to see a soccer game, I don't think they should be forced to have to choose a side of political belief before they view a game. It's one of the reasons voting is done in secret in the privacy of a booth.
     
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  21. rocketeer22

    rocketeer22 Member+

    Apr 11, 2000
    Oakton,VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that following is somewhat tangential to the discussion, but I do have a question: if the games weren't televised, would people make the effort with the signs?

    On an immediate / fan safety level, stadiums such as Audi Field already make weapons prohibited. So, people are being conditioned (to a degree) about what is permissible. But, unless as part of a special program through MLS Works or something, is it beneficial to have a variety of things posted throughout a stadium and have it be different from other MLS games?

    https://www.dcunited.com/matchday/prohibited-items

    As an after-thought, in the early years MLS was so concerned about potential misconceptions that DC United was required to redesign its eagle logo/crest as some thought it looked too much like an eagle from Nazi Germany banners. This could be debated, but there is early precedent for the league to manage items it thinks may be questionable. Though, having a consistent message would be helpful.
     
  22. rocketeer22

    rocketeer22 Member+

    Apr 11, 2000
    Oakton,VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  23. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With Roth's departure, the Sounders could be without the pre-requisite "Billionaire" in their ownership group. While Paul Allen's sister did inherit his ownership, there is speculation that she'll be looking to get out of the sports business and focus only on the charity portion of her brother's empire. Assuming, of course, the trove of Microsoft people they added aren't billionaires.
     
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  24. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. A broad definition of political wasn't found workable while a very narrow definition was, but the problem for MLS is that they want a broad ban not a narrow ban.

    Even then it's not so clear. Take the Texas standards. Taken narrowly "relating to a candidate" would just mean no shirts that say "vote for Joe", but taken broadly, almost anything can relate to a candidate. If I wore a T-shirt that says "life begins at conception" when there is a senate race with the understanding that the number of conservative senators will affect supreme court appointments, is that political? How about a statement "Markets need regulation"? How about a Che shirt? Or Pepe the frog?

    At least with the Texas standard there exists a narrow interpretation that could reasonably stand alone since the are political issues (measures up for vote) that can be specified in advance. MLS wants to take the broadest view possible which opens up so many more issues.
     

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