Top preformances in major competitions (Not the World Cup)

Moreno usually ranks ahead of Pedernera in the all-time Argentine rankings, in fact Moreno only lost the #1 spot in 1990, when Maradona took it. In any event, even if they are basically equal, the conclusion would be the same in comparing with DiStefano.

 

I know that... but it did not "literally" mean, Moreno was a clear better skillful player then Pedernera.

Like often. people rated Di Stefano > Puskas (for he was older playing along side Di Stefano at Real, and that team was BUILT around Di Stefano) but it did NOT mean, Di Stefanow as a "clear" better player then Puskas NO

Like Zidane was "often" ranked higher then Zico (for he never won WC) but it did NOT mean Zidane was a betetr player = NO WAY

 

The difference is slight either way, I would rank them about equal between DiStefano and Puskas. But Moreno from the reports of the time, is just a tad greater than Pedernera, as Moreno is usually given the highest acclaims.

Your point about ratings also would apply to any rating of Ronaldo over Zidane or Romario, by the way. It's exactly the same principle.

 

It does seem like Moreno was commonly (not necessarily exclusively) viewed as Argentina's greatest player from the first half of last century according to sources we can view, some of them posted by Vegan for example (he was compared to Pele when the Brazilian had become arguably the best player ever). But interestingly the quote from Di Stefano himself acclaiming Pedernera would seem to suggest he thought of him as better than Moreno? (I think he'd been asked about the best player ever hadn't he? - although I remember on the Real Madrid channel when that was on Sky TV there was a presentation to him, maybe from UEFA, and he gave a few possible names as best player ever but said it was impossible to decided; I remember Bobby Charlton was among them but not Pedernera - he also voted Maradona best ever in France Football's poll but has recently said he thought Pele was the best ever).

Anyway, from the stats that Puck posted re: Moreno's career we can at least see clearly how good the Argentine team's results as a whole were at that time (albeit only against SA teams; Brazil had done well in the 1938 WC though - interesting double two-game match-up in 1938&1939 I see with Argentina getting a 5-1 win both home and away followed by a 3-2 loss).

But it's really hard/impossible to form our views really isn't it. And Di Stefano's game is indeed said to have fully flourished at a late stage (and he carried on like that well into his 30's) - I think Vegan posted Pedernera comments saying that too didn't he - based on Pedernera seeing Di Stefano play in Spain IIRC. Di Stefano credited Pedernera for his development though I think, to the extent that as Puck posted Puskas suggested Di Stefano should stay a bit closer to the goal like Hidegkuti (who himself was a false 9 so not an outright forward player). I'm going to have a look again at Vegan's Di Stefano thread now, but it seems like well before Puskas arrived he had developed an all-encompassing game that combined playing all over the pitch with using his great touch and intelligence to instigate moves (more than in Argentina it's said I know) and of course his goalscoring instincts and quality. Maybe he was even a better technical player in Spain (or to an extent at Millionairos)? But it's guesswork I suppose. I doubt anyone was calling him the best ever before he played for Real Madrid but none of us can really assess whether that is due to exposure or becoming a better player, although it's likely both to an extent I suppose. He was a star and scoring a lot of goals before going to Spain though too.

On Puck's Placar thread, I noticed only a couple of Argentine journalists selected Moreno in their all-time XI's (and there are some other early era Argentines selected but not Pedernera) although at least one other journalist from outside Argentina also did IIRC. As Vegan commented though the polling was done well after Moreno played and several journalists perhaps didn't witness him at first hand.

I guess indeed in the mid-30's many English might think of Cliff Bastin or Raich Carter as better than young Stanley Matthews. But that might have changed before 1940 anyway (but again very hard to get a proper impression).

 

That is a good (and hard) question to answer.

When look at euro stars from 30s. There is an almost unanimous approval for Meazza as the best.
But my impression is that pre-internet generations saw Sindelar as better or equal to him. And we had Dr.Sarosi too.

So there is no hard conclusion (not existed direct confrontation between the big guns Euro-SA in the 30s-40s), also the enviroment in Central Europe (Mitropa) was the highest in that era. I'd said more competitive than British.

But, how competitive was the environment in South America?

 

Thanks.

I think it's possible that Moreno was individually a better player than Di Stefano, but I become highly sceptical when it's also claimed that Labruna, Pedernera were better (claims that are correlated with the claim 'Moreno was better').

We know that players can sometimes get a boost or face problems when they switch to a different league. It happens in both ways; super talents who look mediocre abroad, and others who are much more successful and better performing as they did at the other side of the ocean.

I think it's also known that Real Madrid was the regime's favourite team and that's also a related point David Miller made regarding Maradona his spell @ Barcelona, I remember (i.e. one hasn't to be a heterodox conspiracy theorist to imagine the idea). https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...adona-v-platini.1989797/page-24#post-28544836
But the extent of that is ofc very contested just like the question whether a player makes the team or the team makes the player. In that respect I think it is generally perceived that Madrid was (domestically) very strong and they had also an unbeaten streak between early 1957 and early 1964 (started and ended with a loss versus Atletico Madrid!).

But yeah, purely from an individual point of view I can imagine an angle where Moreno was maybe individually a better player. Or more talented (based on stories about lifestyle it seems that Di Stefano was more professional off the field... often overlooked aspect).

As you know, I calculated once the difference in 'points per game' achieved between when a player played and didn't play. It has limitations obviously (just as simply counting the goals scored!) but in a time with no rotation/resting policy (or substitutions) it appeared that Real Madrid achieved the same points without Di Stefano (1.50) as when he played.

Similarly, the incredible success of Real Madrid didn't mean that Puskas/Di Stefano ran away with all individual honours in each and every year. I don't know it for every year but in his first season (1953-54; when Real Madrid won the title for first time in 20 years) the players association +journalists preferred Kubala and Wilkes ahead of him (maybe you saw it previously?). Problem is though the limited possibilities to follow the league at the time, but still. It is something of which I think: yeah, can be that Moreno was individually better (but become wary when also Pedernera/Labruna become tied to this).

Speaking of that; when we look at the joining of Maradona at Napoli or Cruijff at Barcelona, the statistical impact is immediately visible (increase in ppg achieved, or goals scored). For example: Napoli went from 26 points to 33 points; Barca jumped from 41 goals in 1972-73 to 75 goals @ 1973-74 (in 34 rnds season).
It's just statistics but if we look at Real Madrid in 1952-53 vs 1953-54 then we see: 39 pts vs 40pts; 18 wins vs 17 wins [sic], 3 draws vs 6 draws, 9 losses vs 7 losses. 67 gls vs 72 gls (30 rnds); 49 gls against vs 41 gls against.
They also got a limited amount of other new players btw, compared with previous season (for ex. 20-years old Gento, Pazos, Becerill, Lesmes 1st full season; with Atienza and Paza as new 12th and 13th men who filled in vacant spots in case of emergency).
http://www.bdfutbol.com/en/t/t1953-542.html

It remains difficult but what I mean is: if there was indeed an immediate jump in goals scored (Di Stefano was still league topscorer ofc) then we can say with better safety 'that's sheer individual class' - less likely that's "the team". It provides an extra layer/argument so to say.

But basically, as I said above, my personal feeling is that it's unlikely that all 'golden oldies' were equal/better than Di Stefano. That one of them was individually better might be, considering the unique history of Real Madrid (the great vision of chairman Bernabeu is unanimously appraised everywhere too), it's an option but because of the high correlation with other names I tend to be a bit towards the sceptic side. I hope I'm a little bit fair now.

 

Thanks Puck.

Yeah, given that a) It's wrongly or rightly assumed that the very best football players were from after 1950 and b) Di Stefano is sometimes rated over Pele and others and we can see enough footage to understand why along with the testimonies even if we wouldn't necessarily agree of course
then it would be hard to believe that several of his former team-mates were actually better than he ever became (or to look at it another way, could have done even better had they been the ones to play in Spain).

But that isn't based on any actual views of course (although as I say Pedernera is said to have said that the best version of Di Stefano played in Spain IIRC from what Vegan posted a while ago I think). And logic doesn't always make sense (that sounds like a Cruyff-ism lol but I just thought of it now!). The best few seconds of play I saw from Moreno was a goal where he sprints onto the ball on a dusty pitch and rounds the goalie before scoring left footed (better than what is still on Youtube) but the trouble is the total amount of footage I've seen from him is about 20 seconds excluding ball juggling exhibitions (but that is maybe true for pre-1950 Fritz Walter too, literally as I've seen some juggling from a young him too!, or Matthias Sindelar actually without the juggling although by all accounts I'm sure he'd also be good at it - it would have been great to see his goal vs England was it that was much heralded - btw I know as msioux says and you've pointed out Puck that Sindelar was often regarded as a star even moreso than Meazza, but on Meazza's PES page I remember is a quote proclaiming him as the best from an Englishman in 1933 - anyway we have a little bit more footage of Meazza but still we can't see any prolonged footage of a game he played in of course).

Apologies if too much text in one paragraph here or previously. I was thinking as I typed!

 

Pedernera, ok. But for what I have read about Labruna he is described as a limited and simple kind of player. Not particularly remarkable with the bal at his feet. Just made a (great) living out of his "pique corto" and finishing ability. Not really comparable to the likes of Moreno, Pedernera and Di Stéfano.

 

OK, fair enough. That's OK.

Anyway, IMO it is often overlooked that according to the stories Di Stefano took a lot of care over his body whereas Moreno didn't (according to stories; drinking a lot of alcohol & 'unhealthy' nutrition while Di Stefano was ahead of his time when it came down to diet).
That professionalism might've made him a success and great fit in Europe.

 

@Once - how would you describe Lostau?

@Puck, do you even have a clue what you're talking about?

 

Make the argument instead of adopting the 'PeruFC-tactic™' and taking the higher ground.

 

Relax @Puck I was just joking. I don't know why you would bring Labruna to the argument though, it's really a non-sequitur since he is decidedly not in the same class of Moreno, Pedernera and DiStefano.

 

Well, until a few months ago I knew about him what anybody does: one of the best Argentine wingers of all time, very fast, great dribbler, fantastic left foot, prolific scorer (for a winger)... Then I read that Peucelle added on top of all that, that he was a very brave despite his light built and the kind of player that would naturally fight for the ball when the other team had it, extremely proffesional (the exact opposite of Moreno) and very well rounded (started as a fullback). I wanna have him in my team...

 

NO

do you understand oranges vs Apples?
Zico failed WC, while Zidane won it (and Ronaldo Romario Zidane all WON WC in their hands OK? )
Real was a team built on Di Stefano = FACT, Ronaldo was in differnet team to Romario and Zidane

 

Agreed.
Apart for his quick turn of pace, and finishing skills, it was also very remarkable in Angel Labruna his 1-2 passing with Loustau at great speed and interchanging positions.
For other skills, he seems to had been decent to good.

 

Al right. I told what I've read regularly and that's that Labruna was supposedly equal to Di Stefano too. In fairness, Labruna had great longevity (playing as 39 years old at a World Cup, though longevity wasn't unique for that era - see Zizinho too) and domestically a great scoring record (as had Moreno and Pedernera). Apparently he wasn't a 'poacher' but someone who often interchanged positions as well, with the other forwards or the wing players.
Hard to get a rough impression without footage however; also in case of Moreno. But I understand that he scored a very high proportion of his goals with his head??

EDIT: Di Stefano himself said, apparently according to the media, that people "only talk about Messi because they didn't see Labruna and Pedernera at River Plate." There you have it msioux....

 

Labruna himself seems to place himself lower in the pecking order among them. In Spanish:

http://www.elgrafico.com.ar/2012/08/16/C-4424-angel-labruna-con-frases-en-primera-persona.php

ANGELITO JUGADOR
“Cesarini fue el formador de La Máquina. Convenció a Moreno de que tenía más campo para recorrer y lo puso de 8; lo convenció a Pedernera de que contra la raya estaba asfixiado y lo corrió de 9; me ascendió a mí. Al tiempo lo convirtió al Loco Loustau de marcador de punta en wing izquierdo y a Muñoz, que jugaba de 8, lo puso de wing derecho”.

“No es cierto que entre los integrantes del equipo nos lleváramos mal. Había muy buena convivencia. Lo que pasa es que los tiempos eran distintos, había más libertad, menos compromiso. Teníamos a Moreno, que le gustaba salir, y estaba yo, que salí una noche y no salí más; me descompuse y al otro día no pude ni ir a entrenar. Anduvimos por todo Buenos Aires porque le habíamos ganado a Boca, por todos los piringundines de la calle Corrientes”.

“Pedernera era más estratega, más técnico que Di Stéfano. Alfredo era más punzante. Para mí, el maestro siempre fue Adolfo”.

TRANSLATION:

Cesarini formed "The Machine". He convinced Moreno that he had more terrain to cover and placed him as #8; he convinced Pedernera that playing against the touchline was limiting him and moved him to a #9; he promoted me. With time he converted The Madman Lostau from a fullback to left wing and Munoz, who used to play as #8, he put him as right winger.

It is not true that the members of the team did not get along well. There was good camaraderie. What happens is that those were different times, there was more freedom, less engagements. We had Moreno, who loved to hang out, and then there was me, who went out one night and then never again; it messed me up and the following day I could not even make it to training. We had partied all over Buenos Aires after beating Boca, barhopping on Corrientes Street.

Pedernera was more strategic, more technical than DiStefano. Alfredo was more incisive. To me, the master always was Adolfo".

 

That remark is from May 2013. "People talk about Messi because they didn't see Labruna and Pedernera at River Plate."

December 2012:

http://www.insidespanishfootball.com/36093/di-stefano-tells-fans-to-back-mourinho/

 

Thanks.

Some funny remarks.

 

Yeah, he had also great longevity for being a good profesional. But i don't remember read anything regarding him as a good header.
I had an El Grafico issue when they mentioned all great headers whom played in Argentine league, since 1910s to 1980s, and Labruna isn't mentioned, but Moreno, Boye among contemporaries.

btw, i guess it's clear that Di Stefano's quoting is for prasing greatly his River teammates as a whole, as a team. On contrary would be easier to find another quotes claiming Labruna as an elite player.

 

Oh sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant that apparently Moreno scored a large percentage with his head! Not Labruna.

Oh, probably you know it already but Labruna became also voted as 26th best SA player ever by IFFHS (where larger countries provided more voters).
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html#sampoy

It's interesting because it is not rare to see contemporaries/team-mates 'stealing' votes from each other (pressing down results). Or that there's a limit to the amount of players included from the same team (as example: voters will not be tempted to name five Brazil'70 players in a top 30 all-time World Cup - even if they would believe so, there's generally a limit to the number of players from the same team mentioned).
So it's interesting Labruna making it, with several contemporaries/team-mates ahead of him or below him.

 

It's very likely a mistake but Placar of Brazil mentioned Labruna at 25 without his team-mates ahead of him (Moreno, Pedernera).
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html

 

Very nice and agree ... Di Stefano was so lucky to have two greats Moreno and Pedernera as his mentors to learn from -

The question is that the mature Di Stefano (at Real mid 50 onward) was same as Moreno or Pedernera o not is remained unanswered ...

 

Nice drawing Tom