This is a general question for all, but why is it that Moreno's best years are constantly seen as the 40s or the late 40s? In the late 30s he was winning the title with River, scoring more goals, winning more games, and defeating better competition that any time in the 40s with La Maquina. Is La Maquina just such a famous name that people assume that was his best time or are there specific sources that say so? Look at these team and personal stats from Moreno and River. To set the scene at the time of Moreno's arrival at River in 1935 they were not a great club yet, they had won the league only twice in 44 seasons, the last being in 1932 behind Ferreyra's great season. In these early years a young Moreno and Pedernera hooked up with a still effective Ferreyra and Peucelle to form the core of the attack that would score more goals than La Maquina ever did. You can see a huge turn in fortune of the team with the full introductions of Moreno and Pedernera in 1936. All Moreno's seasons with River 1935 - 6th place - 1.29 points per game - 2.09 goals per game - 19-6-9 - Moreno - 13 app 5 goals 1936 - 1st place - 1.44 points per game - 2.47 goals per game - 22-5-7 - Moreno - 33 app 24 goals 1937 - 1st place - 1.71 points per game - 3.12 goals per game - 27-4-3 - Moreno - 31 app 32 goals 1938 - 2nd place - 1.59 points per game - 3.28 goals per game - 23-5-4 - Moreno 31 app 24 goals 1939 - 2nd place - 1.47 points per game - 2.94 goals per game - 32-4-7 - Moreno 24 app 20 goals 1940 - 3rd place - 1.23 points per game - 2.71 goals per game - 17-8-9 - Moreno 33 app 16 goals 1941 - 1st place - 1.47 points per game - 2.50 goals per game - 19-6-5 - Moreno 28 app 14 goals 1942 - 1st place - 1.53 points per game - 2.63 goals per game - 20-6-4 - Moreno 29 app 10 goals 1943 - 2nd place - 1.47 points per game - 2.47 goals per game - 19-6-5 - Moreno 23 app 6 goals 1944 - 2nd place - 1.47 points per game - 2.27 goals per game - 17-10-3 - Moreno 8 app 4 goals 1946 - 3rd place - 1.37 points per game - 1.97 goals per game - 17-7-6 - Moreno 13 app 8 goals 1947 - 1st place - 1.60 points per game - 3.00 goals per game - 22-4-4 - Moreno 28 app 10 goals 1948 - 2nd place - 1.23 points per game - 1,97 goals per game - 12-13-5 - Moreno 23 app 3 goals So looking at that here is my question, why is Moreno thought about as the best player of the 40s specifically the late 40s but not the late 30s. Why is he no thought about as the greatest player of the late 30s right along side Erico. Moreno had his best goal scoring seasons in the late 30s (which does not mean everything and I am sure a lot of his decline in scoring had to do with him taking on a more creative role) and river had their best goalscoring and point total season then as well. In addition in the late 30s they were going head to head with Erico/Sastre/Dela Mata Independiente and Varallo/Caceres/Cherro/Lazzatti Boca Jr. In 1937 River's and Moreno's best statistical season ever they were going head to head with Erico and his record setting 47 goal season. So why is Moreno thought of as a great 40s player but not a 30s? Why isn't Moreno-Pedernera-Ferreyra-Peucelle thought of in the same breath as La Maquina? In fact a strict definition of La Maquina never even really won a title, Loustau was not on the team in 41 and a bit player in 42 and in 45 Moreno was not there. The forward lines in the late 30s and the iteration in 47 with Di Stefano appear better to me.
Great question, I don't know the answer but my guess is your assumption would be correct: Is La Maquina just such a famous name that people assume that was his best time
If I'm not mistaken, La Maquina only played 18 games together. That is, a line-up with all names Munoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Loustau. In any event, not more than 25 games with those names, which was supposed to be the strongest line-up possible. The conclusion is up to others.
That's because other great players were part of the attacking front line: Peucelle and D'Ambrosi at the start, then DiStefano towards the end. The style of play and dominance didn't change, even if it reached its zenith with the five players you mentioned above.
They don't know and just parrot what they hear to make them seem special and knowledgable about such an unknown player. Moreno >> Di Stefano makes you look badass and controversial. Of course Pedernera is also way better than Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
I agree that you brought some good points, however Moreno best years were surely around the 40's (if you want precised 37/38 There is NO definition of what is "la Maquina" ... but often they were mentioned as 5 biggest names in them as shown. La Máquina: Muñoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, and Lousteau. =============================================== Similarly to Great Real 1st Galacticos of LATE 50's. They were changing a bit by bit with different players, but GROSSLY people remembered the 5 big names: Gento(11) -- Puskas(10)-- Di Stefano(9)-- Rial(8)---Kopa(7) Joseito and Santisteban were often forgotten ...
so what drove you to such conclusion? Did you really really know them at all - or just another Parot?? LOL
And you can disprove it exactly how? I guess it must bother you that there is another player considered greater in South America than arguably the greatest player ever in European club competitions.
Moreno was one of the top players in Argentina pretty much since his debut in 1935, getting his first cap in 1936. I guess he is associated to the 40s more than the 30s because it was during the 40s that La Maquina took shape and when he had his stellar Sudamericano, that or 1947. In 1937 he had his most prolific year, beaten only by Arsenio Erico for top scorer of the tournament and outdoing legendary goalgetter and teammate Bernabé Ferreyra. A large proportion of those 32 goals were headers. I forget the right number but it was more than 20 of them. Peucelle says so in his book talking about the great partership they had made of the right side and how he had served the crosses for every single one of those headers. Adolfo Pedernera was able and did throughout his career play all 5 positions in attack. It was late in 1941 when Peucelle convinced the team manager to move Pedernera from the wing to the center of the attack (because due to the characteristics of starting CF D'Alessandro the team had to play for him, but Pedernera was a much more gifted player that would be able to orchestrate and allow a different kind of flow). So La Maquina was born little before the end of the 1941 season but I dunno when it ended (when Moreno left in 1944? when Pedernera left in 1947?). They became famous because of the way they played, not for their scoring prolificness or the collection of titles. In fact, it is said that there was a certain disdain in the way they played towards scoring, often leaving it to the last minutes of the game to start actually pushing for it after dominating the match. It led to them baing called "Los Caballeros de la Angustia". It sounds a bit strange, but that is what is SAID.
Nice stats, Tom. I think Once answer clearly why La Maquina was highly rated by contemporaries (not just names, but also a style of playing football, innovation tactics, etc.). About Moreno, i think he played great at late 40s (the brain for River title at 47 and also a title in chilean league). But, i see it more as a sign of great form, not his prime years itself (1st half of 40s, i guess). So, i agree that could be said that Moreno's performance: late 30s > late 40s But, in the 30s he was viewed more as a brilliant solist, maybe selfish, esp. when joined to Pedernera in the left side. It was also said that another reason to dismantle the partnership Moreno-Pedernera was to allow other teammates participated in the game
Guess so ... Well the young Di Stefano was there ... but then he replaced Pedernera in Copa47 (!) For many years, Di Stefano was the alternative response to the ‘Maradona or Pele?’ question. Given what is happening in Barcelona, perhaps that debate is becoming redundant. Yet before the emergence of Leo Messi, Di Stefano would answer that particular question by saying that the greatest players he ever saw were Munoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Loustau. He was reciting the front line of River Plate’s La Maquina, one of the precursors of total football, and the front line which he himself formed part of when that attacking five was slowly dismantled.
Since we are talking about La Maquina here I decided to translate for you some interesting parts regarding that from Carlos Peucelle's Futbol Todotiempo. But first something related to the 1937 South American Championship from the prologue by Dante Panzeri. The writer is talking about Peucelle as one of the most well rounded footballers he ever saw along with Alberto Ohaco (the first complete player seen in Argentina), Antonio Sastre and Uruguayan Ángel Romano. Said Peucelle could literally play every position in the field. He talks of 4 memorable performances "outside position": 3 times he ruined the day for Boca Juniors playing as a full back once the team was left with 10 players (does not say which games exactly) and once he completely outdid the by then feared "Tucho" Mendez (legendary Argentine player massively overlooked too often, thats my opinion) playing left half-back in a River-Huracán in 1941. Says Peucelle could "see it all" inside the pitch. He is credited for making La Maquina happen, though he always refused to accept such distinction. Calls Peucelle the ultimate collectivist and gives a couple of examples of his tactical prowess and ability to see what others did not. Says about the decisive match of the 1937 South American Championship between the host Argentina and Brazil that the Argentine inside forwards were too static (Varallo and Cherro) and thus Lazzatti was lost in the middle for Tim and Luisinho, the Brazilian insiders, to take good advantage of. Peucelle was a sub and saw the problem and understood the potential catastrophe. He addressed manager Seoane like this: -Put me in as insider because if you dont they are going to turn Lazzatti inside out. Put in de la Mata on the right so he can cause problems with his speed. Peucelle went in for the second half and the Brazilian insiders disappeared, Lazzatti took command of midfield and de la Mata won the game with two goals. Another one. That same year River was on its way to the Argentine title. The 29th game of the season (34 games) was at home against Racing. First half ends 4-1 for River but with Moreno injured. Manager Hirschl was all smug: - Today we pass the 100 goal barrier (they were like 20 goals from it at the time, finished the tournament with 106) Worried about Moreno's situation Peucelle replicated: - Lets not worry about the 100 goals, boss. Lets try to get the win first. - Nonesense. We are 4-1 ahead, today we pass the 100... Second half begins with Moreno "parked"on the left wing. Pedernera as insider but without the battling of Moreno. Scopelli takes the opportunity to start organizing Racing since he was now free of Moreno. 4-2. Peucelle can realize whats coming and goes to Hirschl: - Boss, put me in as inside left so I can tie Scopelli up before they get the draw. - Stay quiet and stay put! Racing gets another one. 4-3. - Boss, please let me in.. - Told you to stay put and zip it! Hirschl insists. Racing scores the fourth. 4-4. Scorer: Scopelli. Then Hirschl commands: - Carlitos, get in inside left! (Hirschl did not speak Spanish very well and there is a bit of a harmless mockery of that in the text ) - Wasnt it so we were gonna reach 100 today?! Funny stuff and very cool little book. Game ended 4-4, btw.
Great stuff Once, hope you keep posting interesting excerpts from that book. A question for you and our other Argentinian/South American posters: How were the top wingers of this golden age for Argentina (late 30s/40s) rated compared to one another? One thing you hear a lot is that many older Argentinian football fans rate Moreno and Pedernera over Di Stefano etc. From that same type of perspective who was seen as the superior player of the top wingers at the time? Peucelle, Garcia, and Loustau seem like the top three candidates to me just looking at their resumes and how firmly they had their nation team positions locked down in their time. Is any one of those three seen as superior to the others? Does Juan Carlso Munoz rank on the same level as those three? What about Mario Boye? I know he was a bit of a different type of player, being very direct and powerful who also played other positions besides the wing, whereas I believe the other four players I mentioned played as more traditional chance creating wingers.
There's a website dedicated to the Argentine league going back to the non-professional seasons in the late-1920s. They feature full-lineups as well as goal descriptions. For 1937 they counted 14 headers ("cabeza") for Moreno and 17 goals scored with his foot ("jugada"). If you haven't know about them, you may check them out: http://www.estadisticasfutbolargentino.com/ They've been collecting this data for 30 years and have recently started to publish them in form of PDFs which one can buy (pretty cheap prices).
Interesting site, thanks! Looked for it and found it on page 131. I translate: "Many times I had as inside right, being myself the right winger, the extraordinary José Manuel Moreno, possibly the greatest player there ever was. Not much happened... He used to try to involve me with his short pass game, but we did not sincronize well as I tended to go for the long-deep run. Once he was moved to the inside left position and sending balls to me from left to right Moreno would really get the best of me and viceversa as I kept sending long crosses looking for his head. In 1937 that translated into 32 goals by Moreno of which 24 were headers deriving from cross-passes of mine". Maybe its a typo... Maybe he meant 14!
Nice article. That pointed out about some Moreno skills. For many he was a sort of "myth", but for others who are more familiar with him, Moreno could be seen as arguably the footballer with the complete package (for his era) and with at least good skill by skill "radiography". (shooting, header, passing game, ball control, dribbling, playmaking, stamina, leadership, courage, teamwork, etc.)
Maybe he wasn't a myth but how can we know he was better/greater as some of the 30s Miropacup stars (who really starred in multiple countries).
That can be said about every player ever. Also burden of prove. There isn't any evidence (competitive environment success) about Moreno being better than Di Stefano. Not impossible either, it's a unlikely guess essentially. If you choose to do so then at least make the same unlikely guesses for British player from the early 20 century. Not done at all, so those double standards 'bother' me. Not really, it's not that I expected someone without any critical thinking to question it. People prefering players from their own generations isn't some mystery. Look at lists from older British journalists. Pedernera being praises similarly also raises red flags.
DiStefano, who dominated European tournaments, played alongside Pedernera at River Plate and Millonarios and most accounts report that DiStefano did not look like the better player. DiStefano was also 24 to 27 when a teammate of Pedernera, so the excuse of him being too young and just starting out is not pertinent. In summary: Moreno >= Pedernera Pedernera > DiStefano Now use your brain for a short moment and applying the transitive property, you get Moreno > DiStefano.
That's exactly what I said before ... during the 40's , yes Moreno and Pedernera was *looked like .. betetr players then young Di Stefano. but NOT SURE, when Di Stefano got MATURE and led Real team (50's) with many stars - yet he still shone bright was another different story. It's just too vague to say especially we lacked A LOT of Moreno/Pedernera info/footages
I was not too sure that Moreno was "really" better then Pedernera . Moreno was playing like Puskas (#10 but going forward more) while Pedernera was like Di Setfano (false #9) often withdrawn deep to MF and get the control. If there is a difference it must be a single HAIR LINE
For who wants to know, here the 34 games of Moreno for the Argentina national team, plus the 19 goals he scored. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/arg-recintlp.html http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/sachampfulltrivia.html#goals 1. 09/08/1936: Argentina - Uruguay 1:0 2. 10/10/1937: Uruguay - Argentina 0:3 [0:2, 76.] 3. 11/11/1937: Argentina - Uruguay 5:1 4. 18/06/1938: Argentina - Uruguay 1:0 [1:0, 10.] 5. 12/10/1938: Uruguay - Argentina 2:3 6. 15/01/1939: Brazil - Argentina 1:5 [0:3, 34.; 0:5, 60.] 7. 22/01/1939: Brazil - Argentina 3:2 8. 10/03/1940: Argentina - Brazil 2:3 9. 17/03/1940: Argentina - Brazil 5:1 10. 15/08/1940: Argentina - Uruguay 5:0 [3:0, 77.] 11. 05/01/1941: Chile - Argentina 1:2 12. 09/01/1941: Chile - Argentina 2:5 13. 19/01/1941: Peru - Argentina 1:1 14. 26/01/1941: Peru - Argentina 1:1 15. 29/01/1941: Peru - Argentina 0:3 [0:1, 55.] 16. 12/02/1941: Argentina - Peru 2:1 [1:0, 02.; 2:1, 72.] (Copa America, Chile) 17. 16/02/1941: Argentina - Ecuador 6:1 [4:0, 30.] (Copa America, Chile) 18. 23/02/1941: Argentina - Uruguay 1:0 (Copa America, Chile) 19. 04/03/1941: Chile - Argentina 0:1 (Copa America, Chile) 20. 11/01/1942: Argentina - Paraguay 4:3 (Copa America, Uruguay) 21. 17/01/1942: Argentina - Brazil 2:1 (Copa America, Uruguay) 22. 22/01/1942: Argentina - Ecuador 12:0 [2:0, 12.; 3:0, 16.; 4:0, 22.; 6:0, 32.; 12:0, 89.] (CA, Uruguay) 23. 25/01/1942: Argentina - Peru 3:1 [2:1, 65.; 3:1, 72.] (Copa America, Uruguay) 24. 31/01/1942: Argentina - Chile 0:0 (Copa America, Uruguay) 25. 07/02/1942: Uruguay - Argentina 1:0 (Copa America, Uruguay) 26. 25/05/1942: Argentina - Uruguay 4:1 27. 12/08/1942: Uruguay - Argentina 1:1 28. 02/12/1947: Argentina - Paraguay 6:0 [1:0, 10.] (Copa America, Ecuador) 29. 04/12/1947: Argentina - Bolivia 7:0 (Copa America, Ecuador) 30. 11/12/1947: Argentina - Peru 3:2 [1:1, 41.] (Copa America, Ecuador) 31. 16/12/1947: Argentina - Chile 1:1 (Copa America, Ecuador) 32. 25/12/1947: Argentina - Ecuador 2:0 [1:0, 30.] (Copa America, Ecuador) 33. 28/12/1947: Argentina - Uruguay 3:1 (Copa America, Ecuador) 34. 29/03/1950: Argentina - Paraguay 4:0 26W 5D 3L ; 106 goals scored by Argentina team As far as I was able to confirm, none of the 19 goals came from the penalty spot (but not sure, unable to confirm)