I think it's Graziani who scored against Cameroon '82. And yeah, they were not a weak team by any means as they were unbeaten + Milla had a goal unfairly disallowed against Peru. Elo rating yes. Algeria 82 too...
Of course there are exceptions where teams do (much) better than their recent form but generally Elo is a good reflector and also a good predictor of future results. The historical Elo closely aligns with the 'points per game' in World Cup history, as well as the number of quarter finals and semi finals reached in tournaments. Add to this the number of times a country gets unseeded and/or placed in a long-term damaging 'Group of Death' (the ruling powers often did this with Netherlands) and it becomes all more logical and transparent to see. The average Elo since the mid 1960s is (they don't go back earlier): 1. Brazil 2. Germany 3. Netherlands 4. Italy 5. England 6. Spain Points per game in World Cup history: 1. Brazil 2. Germany 3. Italy 4. Netherlands 5. Argentina I can't find it for 'since 1965' right now but sure it will align well with the Elo. I.e. Italy 1.83 points per game, England 1.75 points per game at World Cup since mid 1960s. Here something on quarter finals and semi finals reached for the European countries: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/is-england-a-world-power-in-soccer.1984541/page-26#post-32532509
The historical ones are on here: http://www.everyfourthyear.com/1986/ Not showing for 2014, but Puck found their best XI for group stages already so maybe for 2018 we'll find a direct source for the final ratings too. I guess they were discussed when you were on a bit of a hiatus from the site or something, but I think there will be references to them on various threads, dating back to before the 2014 World Cup. For 2010 they are marks out of 10, but from 1970 onwards it is a 1-6 scale used (sometimes with a 0 for a sent off player). You just go to the match and left click the team line-ups to reveal the ratings.
Just looking now though, it seems since the site has been re-jigged (including 2014 results added) that somehow the ratings for 3rd place play-off (Bronze match) games aren't available. They were before for sure though, by left clicking the team lists. For all other games, sorry, you left click the fixture/result, and that was always the case. Hope this makes sense. Sort of watching Spain vs Russia at the same time!
Thanks! Interesting how Cruyff got a 6/6 for a game which ended 0-0. You just know that wouldn't happen these days looking how they rate.
No problem. Yeah, you might be right. I guess with marks out of 10 then full marks would be rarer anyway. I do rate that performance really high myself though, and maybe sources would also justify such a high rating by looking at 'missed chances' by team-mates and some other stats (back in the day I guess France Football just awarded that for playing great, though maybe their report would have mentioned several near assists and various good dribbles etc, so in effect the stats and eye witness view might match somewhat anyway). It was on Youtube, but not sure now.
He is the only offensive player to have received a 6/6 while his team scored 0 goals. Regardless of whether the rating is deserved, it was also back then not common to see. Indeed, also the OPTA stats/algorithm rates his performance very high. Was quite flawless in his technical execution. (ofc in this game he did also defensive things and knitted things together but was primarily an offensive player)
France Football was also happy to give Cristiano a 9 for his Spain performance. It are the 'football fans' to raise points on goalkeeper howlers and cheap penalties (and yes, all his previous 49 free kicks at the World Cup wasn't a goal). Less so the serious press. By the look of it France Football had always a bit of a sense for 'overinflated' performances. More than the press, it are the followers with the social media that have changed.
I have the regular France Football magazines from 2014 and they don't give out any ratings. Is it from a WC special issue maybe?
Ah, sorry, my post is unclear I think. I meant that Puck had posted France Footballs best XI for the 2018 group stages. I haven't seen anything regarding 2014, and maybe the website owner of everyfourthyear didn't find anything either, unlike for 2010.
Thanks to @Titanlux 1958 average ratings can be added to the mix, and I guess it's probable that the gap in between (1962 and 1966) will also be available when the linked thread gets around to those seasons (and even that we can see something in the other direction from 1954 and/or before): Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists | Page 82 | BigSoccer Forum One thing to keep in mind is number of games played of course, but taking Pele as example it can't be assumed his average would surely be lower if he'd played the opening games too I'd say (it looks like he got three 5s and a 6, or possibly two 6s, a 5 and a 4, although three 6s and a 3 would also fit the total - although we can't see his full performances vs USSR or Wales unlike the following two, I'm just thinking it's maybe unlikely he got either a 3 or a 6 for one of those first two games he played). Another thing is that ratings can become less generous over time, although I'm not sure there seems a very big difference between 1958 and at least 1970 in that respect in general at first glance, despite the collection of 1958 players entering at/near the top of the rankings. But here would be the revised top 16 World Cup average ratings of France Football (seems better to expand to 16 rather than stick at 10 now, but Desailly did get a 0 in his final game in 1998 so I'm taking him out of the list and the subsequent XI this time as it seems more reasonable and my note from before that he would make it in on the average of games he wasn't sent off in still stands - I guess even if the policy of awarding grades of 0 didn't exist that he'd be unlikely to be maintaining his average after that Final anyway indeed) with 1958 added in (pending addition of Raymond Kopa - his rating appears to be unclear and somewhere between 4 and 5, but I'm not sure whether Titanlux didn't see it either): 1 - Pele (1958) - 5.25 out of 6 2= Just Fontaine (1958) - 5.00 2= Garrincha (1958) - 5.00 2= Harry Gregg (1958) - 5.00 2= Helmut Rahn (1958) - 5.00 2= Lilian Thuram (1998) - 5.00 7 - Manuel Amoros (1986) - 4.86 8 - Jairzinho (1970) - 4.83 9= Didi (1958) - 4.80 9= Falcao (1982) - 4.80 9= Zico (1982) - 4.80 12 - Gerson (1970) - 4.75 13= Franz Beckenbauer (1974) - 4.71 13= Johan Cruyff (1974) - 4.71 13= Diego Maradona (1986) - 4.71 16 - Pele (1970) - 4.67 And the XI would become this based purely on the average ratings of France Football, incorporating 1958 too. Seems reasonable to allow Maradona and Cruyff as left AM options, even though not nominally their primary positions, and also to put Pele as support striker/AM and Fontaine as main striker/centre forward based on how they played (Kopa was more like a withdrawn centre forward, or in effect AM himself - I guess depending on his ratings then adjusting the line-up to put in him or Zico isn't out of the question but Jairzinho can't really go in now because of the 1958 right wingers ratings; if Falcao/Didi wasn't deemed satisfactory or balanced enough for the summary XI despite Didi being included in effect among left halves in 1958 to reflect Brazil's 4-2-4, then as stated before Neeskens could go in even if he did play quite an attacking role in 1974 himself, though still box to box - it then becomes another question of who is replaced out of Falcao and Didi but Garrincha/Rahn and Maradona/Cruyff are already interchangeable anyway): Gregg 1958 (5.0); Thuram 1998 (5.0), Beckenbauer 1974 (4.71), Cannavaro 2006 (4.57), Amoros 1986 (4.86); Falcao 1982 (4.80), Didi 1958 (4.80); Garrincha 1958 or Rahn 1958 (5.0), Pele 1958 (5.25), Maradona 1986 or Cruyff 1974 (4.71); Fontaine 1958 (5.0).
Going back and checking this post of Tom though, if allowing a 'double sweeper' system in the summary XI on the basis of France actually playing one (although not literally with both trying to play as sweeper I suppose) in 1986, then Maxime Bossis 1986 would be in the XI instead of Cannavaro 2006. The 3rd Place Play-off ratings aren't showing on Everyfourthyear.com for whatever reason now, but from Tom's post it seems clear Bossis didn't get a rating for his sub appearance in that game despite it going to extra-time, while Amoros did receive a 4 out of 6. 4.83 is actually above Beckenbauer's average rating from 1974 anyway too, so Bossis should be in the XI it seems, whichever way it's looked at. I'll revise the XI again then to this, with both Beckenbauer and Bossis in it (wasn't really sure who should go on the left of the pair as I think actually that might be more representative for both even though they were right footed, but also doesn't really matter!): Gregg 1958 (5.0); Thuram 1998 (5.0), Beckenbauer 1974 (4.71), Bossis 1986 (4.83), Amoros 1986 (4.86); Falcao 1982 (4.80), Didi 1958 (4.80); Garrincha 1958 or Rahn 1958 (5.0), Pele 1958 (5.25), Maradona 1986 or Cruyff 1974 (4.71); Fontaine 1958 (5.0) Amending/expanding the top averages list too.... 1 - Pele (1958) - 5.25 out of 6 2= Just Fontaine (1958) - 5.00 2= Garrincha (1958) - 5.00 2= Harry Gregg (1958) - 5.00 2= Helmut Rahn (1958) - 5.00 2= Lilian Thuram (1998) - 5.00 7 - Manuel Amoros (1986) - 4.86 8= Maxime Bossis (1986) - 4.83 8= Jairzinho (1970) - 4.83 10= Didi (1958) - 4.80 10= Falcao (1982) - 4.80 10= Zico (1982) - 4.80 13= Gerson (1970) - 4.75 13= Morten Olsen (1986) - 4.75 15= Franz Beckenbauer (1974) - 4.71 15= Johan Cruyff (1974) - 4.71 15= Diego Maradona (1986) - 4.71 18 - Pele (1970) - 4.67 *Pending possible/probable inclusion of Raymond Kopa (1958) if average rating confirmed, with maybe Johan Neeskens (1974) completing a top 20 but that could be doubtful and would require examining various other ratings again I think to try to verify it...so Kopa and Neeskens in a top 20 isn't confirmed as such at this point and I don't think it's really important to do it anyway.
I'd forgotten I'd posted these things after Tom's work was completed before! Anyway, yeah Morten Olsen would displace Beckenbauer (already evident from the top 18 I posted before but I'd overlooked it when posting a new XI) although did only play 4 games of course in 1986. Pereira and Desailly's sendings off were treated differently in terms of the 0 rating, but in theory if that's accepted (and based on actual ratings) Pereira 1974 makes the XI instead of Olsen. And for sure Neeskens 1974 (and Cannavaro 2006 which I double checked and I did calculate it correctly originally at 4.57) would be a little outside the top 20 averages, because looking again at Tom's work and the findings of Titanlux, for example Osvaldo Ardiles from 1982 and Kurt Hamrin from 1958 both received 4.6 on average.
And for that matter, Clodoaldo and Tostao from 1970 both received 4.67, the same as Pele. If the Falcao/Didi partnership had to be split up then I suppose Clodoaldo gets in the XI actually, but I wouldn't think it has to be. Cannavaro could still be in if a centre back (as opposed to libero type) has to be in, while if a left winger/midfielder had to be in then Rivelino who played in that position in 1970 would get the place, with his 4.6 average rating.
Titanlux said: ↑ I think this clipping that I keep from a disappeared Barcelona magazine may be of interest. I understand that these are average ratings from France Football and then an ideal team proposal by Hanot. View attachment 187117 View attachment 187118 I don't know whether it's indicated that France Football gave their verdict to Garrincha over Rahn (and actually Skoglund over Vincent for the other wing) or not in 1958 (based on the France Football XI, derived primarily from the average ratings, as opposed to the XI of Hanot on the other page). Maybe that makes a case for giving the nod to Garrincha in the historical ratings XI, but I'd still be reluctant to pick Maradona or Cruyff definitively (or leave them out for Rivelino in a more specific 4-2-3-1 - after all various different systems were used over the years - nevertheless Zico doesn't really fit in the template I'm using for the XI on any basis I think once Pele 1958 is in along with Fontaine) - maybe there's the argument based on starting position Maradona is the more feasible choice as left AM, but based on average field position I wouldn't be surprised if it was Cruyff. So maybe this (pending addition of other years' ratings, and possible clarification on Kopa) is where things stand at the moment - I couldn't make my mind up on Pereira so gave a fair play/consistency disqualification re: the top 20 (which conveniently makes it 20 names) but not for the average ratings XI itself.... 1 - Pele (1958) - 5.25 out of 6 2= Just Fontaine (1958) - 5.00 2= Garrincha (1958) - 5.00 2= Harry Gregg (1958) - 5.00 2= Helmut Rahn (1958) - 5.00 2= Lilian Thuram (1998) - 5.00 7 - Manuel Amoros (1986) - 4.86 8= Maxime Bossis (1986) - 4.83 8= Jairzinho (1970) - 4.83 10= Didi (1958) - 4.80 10= Falcao (1982) - 4.80 10= Zico (1982) - 4.80 13= Gerson (1970) - 4.75 13= Morten Olsen (1986) - 4.75 15= Franz Beckenbauer (1974) - 4.71 15= Johan Cruyff (1974) - 4.71 15= Diego Maradona (1986) - 4.71 18= Clodoaldo (1970) - 4.67 18= Pele (1970) - 4.67 18= Tostao (1970) - 4.67 Gregg 1958 (5.0); Thuram 1998 (5.0), Pereira 1974 (4.83), Bossis 1986 (4.83), Amoros 1986 (4.86); Falcao 1982 (4.80), Didi 1958 (4.80); Garrincha 1958 (5.0), Pele 1958 (5.25), Maradona 1986 or Cruyff 1974 (4.71); Fontaine 1958 (5.0)
Anyway, I don't want to rush Titanlux (if he even does have info for the other years in between 1958 and 1970, and/or any others) because I know he's said he wants to reveal things year by year at the relevant time on that other thread. But I think that it's quite conceivable some other entries would make their way into the top ratings XI of France Football. It'd certainly be interesting for example if Garrincha in 1962 got a lower average than in 1958 from them (probably 'surprising', especially if not penalised, at least not with a 0 rating, for being sent off vs Chile, which I tend to think he won't have been). Comparing my own estimations for first and second XI (continuing not to name players a second time, since France Football's ratings thus far don't result in a player being selected twice in the first two XIs...so I leave out Pele 70 and don't consider Krol 78 or Maldini 94 for a central defensive place in team 2 either, given I'd have been in two minds vs the ones I actually put there) and bolding those we haven't got ratings for from France Football yet....(leaving out Pereira this time for consistency with their later policy). I'm trying to merge the 4-1-3-2 I was using with the 4-2-3-1 that seems most suitable for FF, hence Cruyff switches places/roles seemingly (and Kopa if he had a rating of about 4.83 from 29 cumulative points in 1958 would I suppose actually take Cruyff's place in their second XI, but he could have anywhere between 25 and 29 cumulative points). My Team 1 on left, France Football's, based on ratings, on right: Goalkeeper: Banks 66 - Gregg 58 Right back: Carlos Alberto 70 - Thuram 98 Libero: Baresi 90 - M.Olsen 86 Centre back: Moore 66 - Bossis 86 Left back: Krol 74 - Amoros 86 Central midfielder: Beckenbauer 66 - Falcao 82 Playmaker: Cruyff 74 - Didi 58 Right wing/AM: Garrincha 62 - Garrincha 58 Left wing/AM: Maradona 86 - Maradona 86 Support striker: Pele 58 - Pele 58 Centre forward: Eusebio 66 - Fontaine 58 Team 2s: Goalkeeper: Fillol 78 - Preud'homme 94 Right back: Cafu 98 - Carlos Alberto 70 Libero: Scirea 82 - Beckenbauer 74 Centre back: Cannavaro 06 - Cannavaro 06 Left back: Maldini 90 - Junior 82 Central midfielder: Matthaus 90 - Clodoaldo 70 Playmaker: Kopa 58 - Gerson 70 Right wing/AM: Jairzinho 70 - Rahn 58 Left wing/AM: Hagi 94 - Rivelino 70 Support striker: Kempes 78 - Zico 82 Centre forward: Fontaine 58 - Cruyff 74
It seems that France Football, apart from the ratings used in the individual evaluation of each match, achieved an ideal XI at the end of the championship. It can be seen in this clipping:
Thanks very much mate for another great contribution, following up from what I transferred into this thread that you posted before. So they deviate a bit more at the defensive end of the team from their average ratings with that team, but not too surprisingly and Bergmark and Bellini went all the way to the Final of course. Blanchflower in midfield is the other change, and I see that he is referred to as the best player in the British Isles after the death of Duncan Edwards. Six of the players (if including Garrincha) are in the average ratings XI, the XI they submit at the end with free choice, and the XI of Hanot I notice (N.Santos, Didi, Garrincha, Fontaine, Kopa, Pele).
I was thinking about the best performances stage by stage (group stage games, then round of 16, quarter-finals, semi-finals, 3rd place play-off game and the Final), and came up with this if only selecting one performance per player (otherwise I might be adding two more for Cruyff as per my earlier ideas further back in the thread - the Argentina game in 1974 is equivalent to a Round of 16 game in terms of when it was played I suppose, and I'd had him with the top 2nd game in the 1st group stage too vs Sweden, despite the 0-0 score).... Game 1 - Gheorghe Hagi vs Colombia (1994) Game 2 - Michael Laudrup vs Uruguay (1986) Game 3 - Johan Cruyff vs Bulgaria (1974) Round of 16 - Dragan Stojkovic vs Spain (1990) Quarter Finals - Eusebio vs North Korea (1966) Semi Finals - Diego Maradona vs Belgium (1986) 3rd Place Play-off - Raymond Kopa vs W.Germany (1958) Final - Zinedine Zidane vs Brazil (1998) Here is the Kopa display (plus a video showing the goals from the match which probably clears up the number of assists/goals he got in the game as basically around 1:30 on the Kopa vs Germania video only his pass that led to the penalty, a la Zico vs France in 1986 albeit with a different type of pass, is shown followed by the ball going into the net, but not the fact there was a penalty that he scored himself): Raymond Kopa vs Germania occ Mondiali 1958 - YouTube France 6-3 Germany FR | 1958 FIFA World Cup | Match Highlights - YouTube Some of the calls would be pretty tight or debateable at each stage anyway I think. It made me realise how many semi-final performances I'd picked out before too among the best displays for example, even if it'd be hard to deny Maradona that one I think.
Think about some other contenders for different spots... Best final performance Zidane 98 seems like a good call. Other possibilities Ghiggia 1950 Moore 1966 Kempes 1978 Conti 1982 Baresi 1994 Moore seems like a strong one to me having watched that whole match. Complete performance, really runs the game moving between defense and midfield and does not set a wrong foot. Also someone from Brazil in either 1970 or 1958 as those are really dominating performances overall. Pele, Garrincha, or Didi in 1958 or Pele, Gerson, or Clodaldo in 1970?
Yeah, I certainly felt myself that Moore in 1966 was a great one, and definitely Kempes is an option as a match winning performance I think too. By all accounts Ghiggia probably is a good call, and certainly he was key at decisive moments, but hard to be sure for that year I suppose, just like for example Piola in 1938. I wouldn't dismiss Conti in 1982 by any means, but feel like Scirea is a good option too. And yeah Baresi did very well, until his penalty of course, in 1994 too. I'm not sure there have been so many in recent years. Iniesta's 2010 final game was possibly not his best display of the tournament was it for example? Going back to 1986 possibly Burruchaga's was his best of the tournament, but that seems like a bit of a stretch probably as an option here. Ronaldo did obviously score his two goals in the 2002 final. Somehow I feel there is more from 1958 than 1970 in terms of the really top individual displays in the final game, although the 1970 final was certainly an impressive team display that resulted in an emphatic win. Pele from 1958 would be the one I'd put in the mix for sure I'd say, but there might be arguments for Garrincha and/or Didi too, and both Djalma and Nilton Santos had very useful games I think didn't they, considering they had to contain Skoglund and Hamrin who'd been doing so well. But yeah I mean, I was pretty impressed with Gilmar and Zito too even I remember but probably the main options are Pele plus maybe Garrincha/Didi indeed (Didi more involved overall but Garrincha key in setting up goals).