TOA is now the new NASL

Discussion in 'United Soccer Leagues' started by pc4th, Nov 11, 2009.

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  1. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    The point more or less is that every organization operates that way in some form or another. MLS has always played up the positive parts and glossed over the negatives, its not exclusive to USL. I'm not defending them, it is what it is and if you'd broaden your scope you'd realize it goes on all the time...
     
  2. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    My bad, thanks. I guess USL didn't even say that :).
     
  3. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    Since 1995 the A-league/USL1 have had 45 different teams. They had already lost 35, now with the new NASL they are losing a few more
     
  4. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the last 10 year sthat I've been following soccer, former USL President Francisco Marcos has always talked about how the USL/A-League "grassroots" model would eventually surpass MLS and become the first division in the US, which is of course, completely absurd.
     
  5. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Indeed, and Vancouver's already has a name and city. The Edmonton Drillers start play in 2011 replacing YVR.
     
  6. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    Who is this Fernando Marcos you speak of?

    Got a link?
     
  7. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    shouldn't it be FRANCISCO Marcos?
     
  8. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Houston's last game was March 3rd whereas Montreal survived until the 5th!
     
  9. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    Yes.
     
  10. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, Francisco Marcos. And this is common knowledge type stuff.
     
  11. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My god! Their game was scheduled 2 days later, in the same round :rolleyes:
     
  12. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    I remember quotes from Marcos about him being upset about MLS poaching USL markets, I don't remember him saying USL would overcome MLS as the First Division in the United States.

    If you talk about the structure, USL does have a pyramid which MLS is severely lacking in. I would say they are superior by default in that regard. Is it possible that was he was referring to?
     
  13. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It sure seems like you ARE justifying their actions.

    My point is that the USL has gone way overboard on PR to the point where they have lost all credibility with many people, myself for certain. For some reason, a lot of people who post here on BigSoccer bought-in to many of their press releases over the last few months about all of the great meetings that the USL is having, and all of the interested investors who may be starting a new team as soon as next year, and how despite losing all of their Canadian USL1 teams, they are soon going to open an office in Canada and things will be great then.

    All of those announcements were so phoney and so obviously just spin and nothing else. It must be really humiliating to work for NuRock. I'm just calling them out for being full of it.
     
  14. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Sure. But which people, and are those people really relevant to their business?

    If Obama pisses off Rush Limbaugh is he really losing any sleep over it?

    Is there any indication that USL/NuRock's behavior and public utterances has negatively impacted their core business relationships?
     
  15. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    I'm not justifying anything with them, I am however calling you out on points because you don't seem to be backing them up very well.

    Did they or did they not meet with investors from interested cities? They did. USL never claimed that any of the cities would be moving in to the league in 2010, the only thing that even came close to that notion was a quote from Austin owner Phil Rawlins saying something to the effect that the teams could be prepared to play in 2010.

    At the time of the Canadian office announcement, Montreal and Vancouver were still negotiating with the league. It would make sense if one of the concerns from those two is that they don't feel they get enough from the league office that USL may open up an operations office in Canada.

    USL also still has teams at the PDL, W and Super Y throughout Canada and Montreal and Vancouver leaving doesn't mean they won't follow through.. It really hasn't been driven home through all this that USL-1 is really a small part of USL when you consider the amount of teams that exist within the structure.

    That's your opinion. Truth is you don't know the things that were discussed at the meetings at NIKE HQ, nor do you truly know USL's plans for a Canadian office. Until there is an answer to sanctioning, they won't be moving on much. Resist the urge to pass judgment until we know what will be happening next year.

    I contend there is a very decent chance that NASL will not be sanctioned, I don't buy the bandwagon mentality that has come with it and like I've said before there are bigger factors at play here then just the number of teams...
     
  16. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not yet unless you consider how its effected relationships their individual franchises have with businesses etc...(particularly Cleveland). Or if you consider the business relationship between USL and the 3 teams that have subsequently left which I suspect was impacted at least in part by USL's actions prior and since the original NASL teams left.
     
  17. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I would be stunned if the NASL wasn't sanctioned.

    That said, I'm in full agreement with you on the other stuff. The USL-1, while the "crown jewel" in USL's firmament, is among the smallest parts of USL's operations.

    Having a bunch of unsatisfied owners leave the league isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen. Not necessarily what the USL (or NuRock) wants, but it's not an "end game" scenario.

    The USL is still the one of the largest national organizers of club soccer in the United States. The dismemberment of USL1 isn't going to change that.
     
  18. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No. USL has always pretended to compete with MLS, but it's been a one-way competition. From the beginning MLS was captialized on a completely different order of magnitude than USL/A-League. But words are cheap, so USL has always talked a lot about how they are the next big thing. I remember watching an interview of Marcos on FSC maybe 3-4 years ago, from the NCAA Coaches Convention, and he came off like a complete lunatic. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he was so obviously in denial about the state of affairs in American soccer that it was pretty sad.

    And having a pyramid structure doesn't mean jack. For example, the English Premiere League is a single league. They sit on top of the FA pyramid, but they are doing just fine. MLS doesn't need to own lower level leagues either. It is good for second and third divisions to exist obviously, but that doesn't mean that MLS needs to be responsible for them.
     
  19. Dave Brull

    Dave Brull Member

    Mar 9, 2001
    Mayfield Hts, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unless the NASL approaches the USLs amateur and youth teams with a better idea. Who's to say whether it stops at second division soccer.
     
  20. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, but besides the NASL, the USL is being picked away at from several different directions. The USSDL has more MLS affiliated teams than the Y-League (and possibly as many teams, I haven't taken the time to research), and the NPSL has about half as many as the PDL. The PDL has been at a steady state for a number of years while the NPSL has been growing. The only place they (arguably) don't have direct competition is with the W-League, though they did lose a team or two to WPS.

    I agree that this one thing won't knock the USL out entirely, but with the other things that are going on in US soccer, it's not too far out there to see it as the beginning of the end for the league.
     
  21. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    I had to stop reading. No they haven't "always pretended" to compete with MLS, that my friend is your inference and you still have not provided one substantive example of what your point is, only what you think and want it to be.

    No doubt. They had way more money, USL never gained investors like the ones MLS did to prop them up.

    Inference again. It's what you believe to be true.

    So he came off like a lunatic but you don't remember what he said. Please provide a link to where he's ever said USL/A-League/USISL is trying to directly compete with MLS. They compete with them in Open Cup, Champions League, and do quite well when you consider the the gap in budgets, but they have not tried to be the First Division in the United States.

    That's true it doesn't mean everything. USL is however responsible for a lot more in terms of the DEVELOPMENT of young players than MLS has ever been. The point is that Marcos has always touted the pyramid structure, something that has always been a strong selling point, so please again, I ask for a link where Marcos or Holt has ever said what you believe to be true.

    If it's out there I'll eat crow, but the fact that you continue to infer what you think as fact makes me believe otherwise.
     
  22. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I never said they didn't exist, but it's pretty clear that they are a long way from starting up most of these teams, if ever. However, USL proclaimed them as if they were going to start this year or next. My point was more about the posters on this site who don't read very carefully and immediately projected that there were going to be 4 brand new teams in
    USL1 next year.

    Well, when they made that announcement, it came AFTER USL announced in a radio interview that they would not have either Vancouver or Montreal in USL1 next year. So according to USL they were no longer negotiating, and you are wrong.

    Absolutely and I never said otherwise. This whole USL1/NASL tiff is not about the PDL or W-League or Super Y-League, which, while there are detractors of those as well, seem to be doing quite well. The USL1 however has struggled for many many years in my humble opinion. That's exactly why they are losing teams every single year, and why the teams that can afford to are joining MLS and the ones wthat can't are looking to start their own league from scratch.

    This is true of everyone who is posting on BigSoccer, including yourself. Your point is?

    I believe that NASL will start up next year as planned. I think sanctioning is a given, but even if it doesn't happen, I don't see it from stopping the NASL from commencing league play. I think this is a huge red herring, but I'm sure many will disagree with me.

    The USSF really is not in a position to demand much of NASL.

    This is a site for people to post their opinions. I am very comfortable in my track record as a poster around here.

    I think you are dead wrong, but we will see, won't we.
     
  23. Mr. Bandwagon

    Mr. Bandwagon Member

    Terremotos
    May 24, 2001
    the Barbary Coast
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :confused:

    Seaside, I'm not interested in debating this with you. Again, USL's history is common knowledge stuff. I am surely not the only person who sees it this way. If youare sincerely interested, then use the internet and learn about the backstory here, but I'm not going to go dig up links to articles and quotes for a guy who is a soccer noob apparently. You are welcome to disagree with me, I honestly don't care. Why should I spend hours of my day providing information for you? Try google.
     
  24. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    I'm not wrong...

    They made the announcement in a press release which was COURTING MONTREAL AND VANCOUVER. It works both ways anyway, Saputo said the same thing and then backtracked... Here's the release by the way: http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/378527.html

    My point in bringing up the other leagues under the USL umbrella was to JUSTIFY the opening of a Canadian office to service Canadians teams at those levels. You've said the announcement of a Canadian office was phoney, I was responding to say that I don't necessarily think it is even without Montreal and Vancouver.


    Your first good point!

    I've heard the scenario that they would go on without sanctioning. If they did that it would definitely hurt in the attraction of international players to clubs, they wouldn't be able to participate in the Open Cup which is their only ticket into the Champions League, despite what Sebby Wellman may want. There is A LOT of disincentive to going on without sanctioning... But its certainly possible.

    Cool. So am I.

    Yeah man!
     
  25. Seaside

    Seaside Member

    Oct 28, 2009
    Thats fine. I've tried Google because I wanted to see if I missed something. I've been around the game longer than ten years and couldn't remember him every saying USL was a direct competitor to MLS. Believe what you want but your premise seems skewed and when you've been called on it you haven't backed it up with anything more than more than your opinion.

    It's reminding me of the TOA owners continually pointing to the "FIFA statute" that required leagues to be team-owned. When they were called out on it and someone finally did some investigation rather than repeating what the owners were saying, they found out the statute didn't exist. Not that it had to, the fact that USL has been sanctioned by FIFA for 25 years should have tipped someone off to the fact that it wasn't true.

    It's not common knowledge, if it were it'd come up right away in a Google search. He hasn't tried to compete with MLS except at the levels his league has been afforded the opportunity, again Champions League and Open Cup.

    Nevertheless, I'm happy to move on.
     

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