Can you believe this thread title? I've complained to the Mods in that forum (Politics and Current Events) but nobody will do anything about it. Do we want to have a Big Soccer Thread searchable with "black men" and "apes"? At least two black posters have voiced their discomfort with it and been ignored also. The white thread members think it's okay because it's sarcastic. It's still not right.
I agree I find it very disturbing to look at as well. I am a regular visitor to the politics forum too.
The thread is about a fairly subtle issue of whether a perceived racial act truly existed, or was invented by the mind of the person who witnessed it and complained. The title quite effectively conveys the author's viewpoint, it's pretty clever. So the intent was surely not to insult. Does it? Best test I know is to substitute skin color and see how it would feel if other groups were the subject. But I don't know how to conduct the test in this instance, because I don't know what insult for white men, or yellow men, or brown men, is quite comparable to "apes" for "black men." So, I don't know. Put it this way - I can understand the reason for this thread, which is unusual for me because I'm generally not very PC about such matters.
What's most objectionable about the title to me is that it isn't even remotely reflective of the actual content of the incident.
A woman calling African-American children "monkeys" and being accused of thinking of them as monkeylike solely because of their race, rather than (as her family argues) because they were climbing trees in the monkeylike fashion that young children will do (e.g., "monkey bars" on schoolyard playgrounds), is so very different than the title? Also, one of the points of the title is, it's pretty ugly to brand this woman as racist and strip her of being a delegate, let's not coat this over with sweetness, it was an ugly event that deserves an ugly title. Which is a legitimate viewpoint if you accept the author's argument that the woman's views were misinterpreted.
Do you have access to knowledge of the skin color of all members and what their view is? I saw the complaint and thought the thread title was kinda crappy, but is the irony of your thread title lost on you? Why do you get special privilege and the other guy doesn't?
Person who wrote the title: not black. Surprised? People who voiced discomfort? Not white. Surprised? My initial post said it was sarcastic. What part of that don't you understand? The true irony that's lost on you is that he's using irony to clear what he considers to be innocent language (and probably is innocent language) by PURPOSELY TURNING IT INTO AN OFFENSIVE RACIST SLUR IN HIS THREAD TITLE. How stupid does one have to be not to see the problem in this?
I appreciate where you are coming from, gt, but I say leave it as is. The discomfort in that thread (title and posts) has a good purpose, don't stop it now. My 2 cents.
You really need to relax, but thanks for calling me stupid. You need to be specific about what you think the problem with the thread title is, because I doubt people of any color don't recognize it was an attempt at irony and to suggest otherwise is probably insulting the intelligence of someone somewhere. If your complaint is there is potential for confusion for those that don't bother to read the thread or that irony aside, it's needlessly inflammatory, that seems legitimate to me, but as JohnR explained, the thread title isn't so far removed from the actual story is it? Here's also what your initial post said: We now have two of these.
Bingo. Well done. A+ and a star. Also degrading to black people. As I understand it, the actual story was an innocent use of language, and the thread title turns it into a conscious racial slur, so you be the judge. Well, maybe not you.
Ah - so if I don't agree with your judgement I'm stupid and a poor judge? I don't know what you mean by "turns it into a conscious racial slur".
It's like trying to explain a joke to a non-English speaker. You understand needlessly inflammatory and degrading, regardless of irony, right? Let's leave the greater irony out of it. If you don't get it, you don't get it. BTW, I don't think you're stupid, I think you're acting stupid as a tactic like the Trent Lott defenders.
Whoa. Are you now playing a game? Because this is one of the topics of that thread... overreacting to perceived racism that may not be. We discussed it at length in the thread and you have been the only one who has gotten more and more hysterical about the thread title. To extrapolate that the forum mods or that dark knight (of all people) are being racist is the only offensive thing I'm seeing here now.
I like to kid myself that I don't offend easily, but your suggestion that I'm somehow playing dumb as a means to defend and protect racism has me struggling to think of a way to respond other than the harsh way I did to ITN the other day. You don't seem to want to discuss this with any sort of decency when I and others here have posed questions to you, so I think I'm going to stick to talking to folks who don't felt he need to respond with insults. Have a nice day.
Now you're overreacting and getting hysterical. If you're talking about the Trent Lott defenders comment, I don't assume they're racist. I imagine them, particularly on these boards, as clueless and stubborn anti-PC crusaders, like so many here. Also, I don't happen to think there's such a profound difference between outright racists and you and me. Still less in the gray areas in between. So now you like "I think they're apes?" Think it's promoting communication? I see it being accepted more than anything. That would never fly in the world.
gtg - someone made a suggestion to me that I thought was interesting - why not ask the thread starter if he's cool with us changing the thread title? As I mentioned before, I thought the title was crappy, but if you can get his agreement I'll be happy to oblige and we can take my faux stupidity out of the equation. I think you do a disservice to your cause by alienating folks who have some sympathy to it - but that's just me. It's more irony, but I consider myself incrediby PC.
Of course you do. What you consider yourself is hardly the point. If people think it's okay to degrade black folks because they don't like me, what does that say about them? If you think it's okay to use racial slurs ironically to a worldwide public, then I call that harmful cluelessness. I've emailed PhillyQuakesFan. I shouldn't have had to.
I didn't say what I consider myself was relevant, I said I thought it was ironic. If you think someone is saying it's okay to denigrate another race because they don't like you, that's just peculiar. Let's agree to disagree - I think your slash and burn approach to sensitive issues is harmful to an open and honest dialogue. You used the same racial slur in your thread title, so the irony that I raised with you in my first post continues to be lost on you. I'm not sure why you feel you shouldn't have to email PQF, but if you think the thread is problematic, wouldn't it do the most good to convey that to the person who started it and give him the chance to have insight into your sensitivities? I'll wait to hear how it goes and prepare for the next volley.
What a load of PC crap. There's a reason the original thread title has quotes around it; I suggest gtgunning goes away and deduces why that is.
Irony, sarcasm and humour have always been intellectual tools used to mock bigots and the ignorant. Where the 'slur' is being used to highlight and scorn racism - then in fact there is no slur and it can scarcely be racism. In fact it is the opposite. I also don't see why a forum populated largely by 30 something intellectuals has to be so squeaky clean and safe. What is wrong with causing controversy and even offense - where one is fighting intolerance and bigotry? Indeed when one moves from article or forum style discussion to theater or film, then one may need to populate ones story with racists, bigots, nazis and other villains in order to generate tension. Shall we also ban that? .02euro
In fact though, this particular "slur as sarcasm" is absolutely not being used to highlight or scorn racism. It's defending the person accused of using a racist slur and mocking the Obama campaign for their initial reaction. It's using an intentional slur to mock a reaction to a perceived slur! Right? C'mon, pay attention.
No, it's using a fictitious slur to mock the idea that this woman was making a racist comment when using the word "monkey".
That's correct. You're agreeing with me. He took an ambiguous comment and intentionally turned it into an bonafide slur for satire. Of course he wasn't satirizing racism. He was satirizing political correctness. He used a racist slur to defend the woman from having used a racist slur. Isn't that ironic? I mean, the impulse to defend comes out of an agreement that we shouldn't be using racist slurs.
No, he hoisted by its own petard the accusation that the woman made a racist comment by his creating a fictitious slur that took the accusation to its absurd limits. If you want to be offended by that, then so be it. Personally I thought it was a relatively clever way of ridiculing the idea that she'd made a racist comment.