This would be best for CONCACAF.

Discussion in 'Caribbean' started by El Yucateco, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    This is pitiful, you do understand that right?

    Surely in the 13 years or so since the formation of the Premiership you'd be able to find at least a few articles to asist you in this 'debate'. Alas not and with it goes all your credibility.

    Calling RichardL an 'apologist' for tearing your rather flimsy argument into small pieces is a sign of someone who's not just against the ropes you've been smacked out of the arena mate. What exatly is he apologising for?

    And given that you're persisting with this nonsense can we now start to call you a bigot/racist given that your whole basis of this argument is the misconception that all Englishmen/Europeans = racists, which is completely devoid of facts?
     
  2. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    Explain four things : Slavery, colonialism, neo colonialism, facism. Which one was invented in the Caribbean or in any part of the Americas.

    Read your own history first before you call anyone a bigot/racist. I have a right not to like your actions toward my people. You are the one with the history of hatred and bigotry not me. Your own Commission on Racial Equality is not sufficient evidence for you. I have provided you with research from your own institutions, interviews with your own people and that is not enough. You are a joker and a fake. Get a life and go post on your own boards. In ten years the MLS will be like the NBA and the EPL will be the joke.
     
  3. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    yeah, we have the history of hatred and bigotry, a few generations back, which is frankly nothing to do with anyone who is alive today.

    you, however, are the one exhibiting it at this moment in time.

    you have no knowledge of the state of the english game, you have just scoured the internet to find a couple of links which agree with your off the wall opinion.

    racism, of course, continues to exist in the world, in britain and in football. there is racism in british football, no doubt, the idea that it is somehow some kind of hotbed for racism is completely idiotic, as you would know if you attended british football matches. the progress that has been made removing racism from the game here is far in excess of what has been done in many places on mainland europe, where the whole crowd thinks it's acceptable to make monkey noises at black players.

    sure, that happened in the past in this country, but it has been stamped out, because we did something about it. yet you try to argue that because there is an active campaign to rid the game of racism in this country this is indicative that football in this country is riddled with racism.

    genius. absolute genius.

    still, go ahead, point at everything and cry racism. that's the way to make progress...
     
  4. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof

    This is the dumbest post you have made and thats going some.
     
  5. Lillywhite

    Lillywhite New Member

    Jun 3, 2005
    London
    And which one was invented in Britain? Not that you even understand the meaning of the word invent but try and have a wild stab in the dark at answering that. It would be more accurate than your previous ramblings.

    You're right, Some people on Britain are racists. Some people in Europe are racists. Shock horror, some people in Africa are racists. Blimey, I've even heard of the occasional bigot popping up in the Carribean. Guess what his name is?

    Plus, MLS will be as big as the NBA, over this side of the pond anyway. Guess how big that is then.
     
  6. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Slavery.

    Who do you think built the pyramids? Union labour?
    Slavery, not invented in England.

    Colonialism.

    Empires existed long before England. The British Isles were themselves colonised by the Romans, pushing out the picts and celts.
    Colonialism – not invented in England.

    Fascism.
    Britain has never been a fascist state. It was not invented in England.


    You seem to have a curious view that if something was not invented in the western hemisphere, then it must have been invented in England.

    I think you must have been to Ellis Island and seen the exhibits about slavery, which keep going on about how all these slaves were sent from Europe, as if the united states wanted no part of it.

    So tell me again, why do you believe racism was invented in England?
     
  7. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    What amazes me about you apologist is that you refuse to accept your own institutions reports on your society and your leagues. Instead of giving some study or statistics to contradict what has been reported you revert to name calling. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to educate you on your own history of racism and how your country used it to justify everything from slavery to your modern immigration and economic policies.

    My message to my people in this region is simply this. We don't need you, or your professional league to develop our players. The only reason our players should play in your leagues is for larger salaries. Some day in the near future they will make more money in the MLS than they can in your leagues. I look forward to that day. That's it. You are the past, and a very unpleasant one at that. If you want to improve your self and your image you can begin by understanding why people like me have little or no respect for your institutions and your policies.
     
  8. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    if you are refering to me, I'd like you to point out anywhere that I've done any name calling.

    Your evidence was 20 years old. Yes, it was different back then. The difference is marked, but for the record, despite that Liverpool incident being hailed as some kind of typical level of behaviour, even back then I never saw a banana thrown at any game I went to. I did hear monkey chants back then. I don't now (except for a game I went to in Russia last year). I don't need a study because I go to games and see and hear what goes on with my own eyes and ears, and I trust them far more than I'd trust anything knocked out by a group of sociology students.
    Yes there have been long running campaigns against racism, but personally I don't think they've made much, if any, difference at all. The difference came from changes in society itself, which is where the problems came from.

    You said England invented racism.
    You went on to claim England invented slavery, colonialsim and fascism.
    You have been proven wrong on all points.


    So I'll ask you again. Do you believe England invented racism, and if so, why?

    so?

    Well, no. They also play there because we have better leagues here, with better crowds and better competitions. The salary is nice, but that's not all there is to it.
    For some players, such as Shaka, England gave them the chance to make a career.
    I don't think you've grasped just how much of a cash gap there is between MLS and the premiership. It was revealed the other week that Liverpool's lowest paid player was on £13,000 a week. That's $20,000 a week. And MLS is no richer now than it was when it formed. Crowds are no better. There is no more TV money.

    It could happen, but soon?

    I really don't care what you respect. You might be rightly bitter about what happened 200 years ago, but there's nothing we can do now about it. If you want to be angry about the actions of long dead generations then go ahead, but try and grasp that the world had a long, and often particularly unpleasant, history for thousands of years before the slave ships started departing from west Africa.
     
  9. bombo

    bombo Red Card

    Nov 14, 2005
    Not to mention that if the West Indies soccer team was to perform as badly as the West Indies cricket team is currently against Australia,it would set them back 20 years....

    Puerto Rico supporter?...Didn't actually know they had a side....
     
  10. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    Every point you have made up has been systematically torn to pieces and your way to deal with it?

    You don't have the time to educate anyone on anything because the simple fact is that you don't know anything. In order for you to provide the kind of proof you're looking for you would have to single handedly re-write world history right up to the present. Sadly, I fear you're not capable of doing that.

    I don't know how long you've held these 'beliefs' for but the fact is that you've made yourself into the BS equivelant of the black knight in Monty Python's The Holy Grail. You are constantly shown to be wrong, you continually fail to provide any proof yet you still prattle on about us being ignorant (I bet you'd even have accused one of us of being racist if I hadn't used that card first). Your arguing style is cyber version of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'LAAALAAALAAAICAN'THEARYOULAAALAAA'.

    Rather than valiantly (rofl) trying to defend your defenceless position your should look at yourself and realise that you are wrong. Sadly I feel that may be too difficult, it seems very much like your prejudices are too ingrained (hence the complete refusal to accept the truth).

    Still, never mind, it's only a flesh wound isn't it?
     
  11. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    The differnece between what I have posted and what you have posted is that I have documented by postion. Yours and your fellow apologist are just mean spirited rants. But you are right. Your rants don't affect me in any way, because I am on the side of right and you are on the side of wrong. I am on the side of good and you are on the side of evil. Therefore, your words do not even amout to a scratch. Try reading about your self and once you learn about your own past the magical lights of information will illuminate your dull mind.

    Your position defines you hence I don't have to explain what you are. Do you have hate in your heart? I don't know. Are you defending hateful acts? You may be too ignorant to know. Are you in a position to concern me? No. I like that last part it sort of rhymes. I'll chant it the next time we beat your weak preseason teams.
     
  12. Prawn Sandwich

    Oct 1, 2003
    Bhutan
    ROTFLMAO - where have you provided supporting evidence for your bigotted claims about England inventing "racism, colonialism, fascism and slavery"? Where have you provided evidence of multiple fans abusing Yorke in that game? Where have you provided evidence of other players of African descent receiving similar abuse in the EPL? Where have you provided evidence that the EPL only became "politically correct" in the last year?

    The only "position" you've documented is your woeful ignorance and ability to make vastly hyperbolic claims with absolutely zero supporting evidence.
     
  13. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You claimed England invented racism, not to mention slavery, colonialism and fascism. I showed you that you were wrong. You have offered no counter-argument in return, other than declaring that I must be an apologist on the side of evil.

    So I ask you again, as you seem to be ignoring the quesion for some reason, do you believe England invented racism, and if so why? It's not a trick question.


    I think you appear to have got you view of the world from watching star wars, where the Death star was filled with English. The power is strong within you.
     
  14. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    OK. Let’s make this very simple.

    There’s no agreed date for the formation of England, but it was roughly 800 ad.

    Slavery has been going on since around 4000 bc.

    Do you wish to claim that slavery, which is around 5000 years older than England, was invented in England?


    Colonialism. Although not the first, the most famous is probably the Roman Empire. The first emperor was crowned in 27 bc, nearly a thousand years before the creation of England. Do you wish to claim England invented colonialism?

    Fascism. This was invented in Italy circa the early 1930s. Do wish to claim that really it was invented in England?

    Unless you can answer yes to those questions, you can’t claim they back up your statement that England invented racism.


    Racism itself. Difficult to put a date on, as there is no record of it being ‘invented’ due to being a state of mind than a specific thing. But do you wish to claim that prior to 800 ad, people of different races lived together in peace and harmony? And furthermore, do you wish to claim that it was a specific event in England that caused racism to exist in the world?
     
  15. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    Thanks Renegade, I have a friend who studies Sociology. I’m going to show him your posts to show him how not to dissertate the subject.

    Here's a tip on the other hand, know what the fvck you are talking about when you post and back it up with evidence. Okay? ;)

    All in all, you have just written some nonsensical garbage as if you were writing a nice little poem. What's truely frightening is, why are discussing racism, a huge social problem and you oth are not.

    That's a little creepy don't you think?

    So take this;

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    There. I don't think Yeats could have discussed racism any more poigantly.

    Oh wait...

    Sorry Richard do carry on, I have babies to eat and nuns to defile you know. ;)
     
  16. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    "know" doesnt rhyme with "no"; they are both pronounced in exactly the same way.

    another thing you got wrong.

    add it to the list.
     
  17. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    if you have no respect for our "institutions" whatever they are, why is it that we should be worshipping what they say?
     
  18. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    Lol. Read my mind. I was humming the Death Star theme when I read it. :D

    Back to the matter at hand, I have noticed a lot more Asians and blacks at football grounds than I do a few years back, so I think the FA is definetly doing something right.

    Racist chanting at EPL games?

    Never heard one in my life. The only time I heard any type of racist abuse was at the Luzhniki last month, when Spartak fans were booing and chanting monkey sounds at the seldom black players on the pitch. Saw a guy with a swastika tatoo on his neck too. Nice.

    But of all the nations he could have choosen, he chooses England, probably the most pro-active nation in Europe to combat racism and hooliganism. Just a shame he didn't witness the English press furore over the Spanish racist chants last year.

    Yes we had our problems, but don't believe what google tells you. Sadly, if you had ever been to an English football game Renegade, you won't be making these outlandish claims. Of course I could take you to see Dinamo play Spartak and let you watch the nice nazi skinheads play, and let you compare. But I won't do that. Maybe I'll point out the Runic fonts and Swastikas in Rome or Madrid or perhaps I'll translate what some of the PSG fans in the Boulogne sometimes shout out.

    But no, I won't.

    I'd rather let you live in your dimished little world that still thinks England as a colonal and social backwater that enslaves, abuses and mistreats its minorites and somehow doesn't and nor has evolved from its languid and utterly moronic and luddite state that it once was.

    Quite frankly its laughable, and the so called freedom path you have chosen is not defending people of your skin colour and proving some righteous stand against justice and honour, its reeking of ignorance that is undoing the hard work people in this country has done to rid purile and feculent notions out of this country that gave us these racist pricks in the first place. :mad:
     
  19. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You've managed to document sweet F.A.

    What are we apoogising for? Certainly not your crass displays of stupidity.

    Finally!

    Oh, I misunderstood. You have a funny defenition of rant though, we've been very analytical.

    Who is Wrong? Is he Chinese? Are you having this exact same 'debate' with him? :confused:

    Cool, my best sig line ever. I've never accused of being evil, aside from that small incident with child sacrifices.

    Tis a flesh wound.

    So you're trying to get us to read about something that doesn't exist except for in your own deranged, twisted and bigoted mind? Please furnish us with links and we will leave enlightened people forever in your debt.

    So because we disagree with your view of the world, which I might add, is almost completely devoid of fact we fit into the stereotype that you have of English people? Correct? Wait... I don't get it.

    No, my heart hasn't beat much due to the way I've been constantly banging my head against the wall.

    What hateful acts are we defending, surely if you're going to accuse us of something you should at least say what. Are you aware that I could sue you for this and win?

    Yeah, maybe we are. Maybe everyone else is and that's why you can't find any evidence to support your position. On the other hand the reason why you can't find anything to support your position may just be that you're a tiny bit prejudiced and are afraid that we're shattering your illusions of the world.

    Yay for small victories!
     
  20. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    We need them because we had a problem.

    So what you are suggesting, is that such schemes like those are inherently evil because they undo a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place?

    :confused:

    I'm sorry but racism does exist in the 21st century and has done for many years, whether you like it or not. Racism in football is just the tip of the frigging iceberg that minorites in our country has suffered and do suffer to this day in other countries.

    Of course, if we didn't do anything the problem would be worse, and then we would be even more terrible than we were. Now, can you see your specious reasoning? How can the issue be solved then? By not having it there? By somehow eradicating a problem that happened years ago at the hands of our forefathers? What do you suggest then? That we use a flux capacitor to go back into time and tell our forefathers that colonialism, racism, nazism is evil and we should adopt a lighter and more social approach?!?

    What is your solution to the problem then? You seem totally ignorant to the problem that racism exists throughout Europe inside and outside the football ground. That we ignore it, deny that it is there? Basically take the same steps we took before to get to such a problem that we once had?

    Also, please can you post what other European countries have done to stem their racism at grounds. Oh, and before you say anything it does exist there too. I've heard it, I've been to them, unlike you.

    You made your bed now lie in it.

    You shall be called out for a ignorant twat, because you made ignorant claims. Now take them back or you will get more of this and be called out on it.

    If I call someone a racist, that person has a right to defend themselves, and the accusser has the right to justify his/her's claims.

    So far you have do nothing to back up your claim, therefore it is spurious. Now please apoligise for your comments.
     
  21. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    This is odd I know, but I just googled ‘Papa Doc Duvailer’


    Quite a good read, if you get the chance.
     
  22. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    None. But that's not suggesting that the Americas or the Carribean exploited them in destructive fashion too.

    The feeling is mutual. Sadly, what is 'my people'? Are you a spokesperson for the ANC now? Sorry to break it to you, but I can't be held responsible to what my forefathers did, nor can I justify or defend their actions.

    Its that type of thinking that caused racism and xenophobia in the first place.

    Errrr. No you haven't. Please show me.
     
  23. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    Jamaica has a ban on homosexuality. Therefore Jamaican people are homophobes who abuse people on the basis of their sexuality. I demand an apology from you for even suggesting that the tar on that brush is covering too many people in Jamaica today.
     
  24. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    A genius. Some Jamaicans are are stupid so its okay for Englishmen to be stupid. I love that argument. It's about time England followed the lead of Jamaica. LOL Your brilliance is astonishing.
     
  25. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    viewed in isolation this thread seems to indicate that trinidad has cornered the stupidity market.
     

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