This would be best for CONCACAF.

Discussion in 'Caribbean' started by El Yucateco, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    Do you guys have Cable TV in NYC? Did you see the all star game? Did you see the New Castle v. DCU match? Did you see the Middlesboro v. DCU match? Did you see the Derby County v. DCU match? Pass me your splif.
     
  2. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Which one? The game where MLS beat Fulham in Fulham's preseason or where Madrid embarrassed all of MLS with a 5-nil hammering? In any event, its irrelevant. You said "several MLS teams" not "MLS all-star team".

    I wasn't bored enuf to watch any of those particular matches. To be honest, I couldn't care less how they turned out. A pre-season friendly is not the way to accurately compare clubs. Especially, when you only focus on the matches where the MLS team competed well. I don't see Galaxy v Real Madrid or PSV v LA Galaxy in the games you listed there. I wonder why. ...
     
  3. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    Huhm..... Why didn't I mention the Real Madrid or PSV matches? Because I was talking about the Premier League. I asked "Did you see the New Castle v. DCU match......etc. ?" Who plays on the MLS all star team? Let's try to focus on the topic I was discussing then you can follow my argument.
     
  4. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    One person at Blackburn was charged with making racist remarks. He weas caught because the crowd pointed him out.

    You know the FA in England did a lot of work to rid club football of the hooligan and racist element and aside from the occasional outburst from some neanderthal they pretty much succeeded in the early 90's. Now you come along and say something completely stupid like "it was only last year that the Premiership became politically correct" :rolleyes: because 'some players refused to play in some venues'. If you were the fountain of knowledge you seem to think you are you wouldn't mind telling us who those players were, what the venues were or infact any credible source to this story?

    I'd like you to put your money where your mouth is. Find sources to prove your apparent belief of widespread racism in the English game, say from 1992-2004, and post them. I'm telling you now you will not find anything but a few rare, isolated incidents. If you can't, or choose not to, then consider yourself corrected on the issue and move on.

    Racism is a serious offence therefore to accuse someone or some institution of racism without proof is also a serious offence.

    I eagerly await your reply.
     
  5. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    On that subject, like many others, you don't have an argument.

    Learn what pre-season friendlies are then come back.
     
  6. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    wth? I hate to tell you, but the EPL is not a 'standard' league. The EPL or La Liga in Spain are well above standard leagues and have 'super teams' like Real Madrid or Chelsea that spend more money and have more total talented players than several other teams in their leagues combined.

    I would argue that it is very rare that world class talent is produced by a professional league. Players like say Messi or Ronaldinho or Ronaldo (etc) were considered to be world class talents before they were playing with the big boys. They simply prove that they are world class when given the chance to play against the big teams. If Adu becomes a world class player it will not be because MLS developed him, but because he had world class potential and talent before he went to MLS.

    You mean like Lothar who was starting for Germany and Bayern Munich and then moved to MLS? How good can Germany and Bayern Munich be if players who are past their prime and in the mid to late 30's chose to play for them? Or how about when Manchester United signed that old French player Blanc. He was half the player than Stam was. I don't remember how old Blanc was, but I do remember that he often looked far too old.

    Furthermore, MLS has some advantages for older players that other leagues do not. One is that MLS typically plays 1 game a week and fewer total games. I am guessing that Everton will play 15 more games than say Kansas City this year. Another advantage is that in MLS the older players that come in often come in to be 'bows' as the once great Hugo Perez was described by his European coach. In MLS your younger players are arrows that do a lot of running, but there is a lack of players with great vision and passing from American players and that brings in foreigners with those qualities. Look at El Diablo, Pibe, Nowak, Cienfuegos, and Djorkaeff as examples of players that came in basically for their abilities to direct and pass.

    I'll just go ahead and say it. I don't think that any of those leagues are light years ahead of MLS. There is a distinct difference between MLS and most leagues around the world. That is that there are no super teams because of the parity and that there is a lack of depth due to the salary cap and the lack of a full fledged development system (youth -> reserve).

    I mean comparing UEFA teams to the EPL based on how their teams in the champions league do against Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man U would be very silly. Arsenal and Man U may be having off years this year (or they may be having slow starts), but Arsenal and Man U have not be indicative of the EPL in this decade. They are way far and beyond that standard.

    The difference is that in MLS the champion is very close in strength to the average team. In fact, if LA wins MLS cup this year people will argue the average team is the champion. That does not happen in Argentina, Mexico, or the EPL.

    Dwight Yorke is no Hugo Sanchez. And Dwight Yorke would most likely not start on most MLS teams over the last 5 years. Sure he had a great run on a great team and I don't mean to take anything away from that, but Dwight Yorke was not a Drogba, RVN, or an Henry. I honestly believe that if you put a player like McBride, Twellman, or Donovan at this point in time on the United teams that Yorke played on they would have similar success that he had.

    I know...heresy. But McBride has shown that he can score with MUCH less service and much worse service than Yorke got. Twellman is a better finisher than Yorke, but may not be athletically strong enough. Donovan would be successful, but would likely score many less goals. He would fit into United's passing game that they love and would likely end up partnering very, very well with Giggs.

    And before anybody freaks out, let me just say that I think its harder to get to play with Man U than it is to perform well for them. Very good players can sit the bench at Man U. Diego Forlan is a good player, but could not show it at United and Veron was an interesting player the year before he came to United, but at United he was an odd player. Never the less, I do believe that a Twellman would score a lot of goals for a late 90s United team if he started 75% of their games. Donovan would be appreciated for his running, passing, and vision. And McBride? I think McBride would score 15+ goals every year with that sort of service.
     
  7. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is it playing like crap when it was basically consistent for his level of play over the last what...5 years?
     
  8. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess all the players that are better than him just happen to play his position. :rolleyes:

    Seriously, I think Glenn is a nice player and also think he should prosper in MLS in the right environment, but Glenn is a player that fits in with a ton of other players that cannot translate ability/previous success into MLS success. Players like Sergio Galvan Rey also fit this bill. MLS has shown that good players from other leagues can do quite poorly in MLS while below average players from other leagues can be stars in MLS.

    Let's not mistake Glenn with a Carlos Ruiz, Brian Ching, Eddie Johnson, or Taylor Twellman. Glenn isn't one of the top MLS forwards by any stretch of the imagination.
     
  9. Renegade

    Renegade New Member

    Oct 20, 2000
    VA
    You know being from the country that invented racism you seem to be so defensive about it. If you want to understand racism in your country go study your own history. I am just posting what was reported in your own press. If you have a problem with that go challenge the sources of your own media. Now before you go around pretending to live in this racist free society you better look at what's going on in France because unless you get a little more realistic it will be happening in the UK next. The last thing I have to do in life is justify my position to you. :mad:
     
  10. yankiboy

    yankiboy New Member

    Sep 2, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    "Invented racism"?

    C'mon Bro. You know that Racism is everywhere, even in coutries where the people "look the same" to outsiders. No one place invented it.

    This conversation has completely broken down. I hope that you guys can see that.

    I'm not putting anyone down. I'm just saying that the thread seems to have collapsed on itself going down this road. Since it was a rerun of a few months ago, it already had a short life expectancy.

    I'm unsubscribing.

    Good Luck to T&T. Do it for yourselves. Do it for CONCACAF.
    Peace.
     
  11. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Wow, that's desperate! You side-step the real issue (ie. that preseason friendly results mean next to nothing) by nit-picking that you were "talking about the Premier League" and not La Liga or the Dutch league.

    (If anything I was doing you a favour since the Dutch league isn't as good as the EPL and La Liga is no better than EPL either). :cool:

    PS... Derby County hasn't played in the premier league for several years now. :p
     
  12. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    Sure enough Dwight Yorke is not Thierry Henry, Didier Drogba or Ruud Van Nistelrooy, but in his prime at 27, he was a world class striker and better than most people who played hence the reason he was bought by Man United. To put a Brian Mc Bride or Twellman against Yorke in his prime is an absolute joke :D

    Are you really thinking about what you're saying? :rolleyes: Go back and look at Man U games in their glory years with Andy Cole and Dwight Yorke then come back and talk to me.

    When has Brian Mc Bride been top scorer in the Premiership? When has he ever scored 30 goals in a season let alone in his career? When did he ever win Preimiership Player of the year award? When was he ever voted to the World Footballer of the year nominations?

    Yorke had achieved all that and then some. McBride, Twellman and the others you mention will NEVER be half the player the Dwight Yorke was in his prime.
     
  13. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    Well I answered this comment ...check my post on the Yorke issue.
     
  14. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    I think its a bit of both. Obviously Messi wasn't anywhere near world-class before he joined Barca. So if he eventually becomes world-class, you'd have to say Barca had an impact on his development.

    So are you sure that MLS isn't light years behind those other leagues?? Almost sounds like you're arguing that it is ("no super teams, no depth, etc.")

    Keep in mind that the MLS champion isn't necessarily the best team in MLS (due to their ridiculous playoff format). If Argentina and Brasil had the same format, you'd also get similar results ("average teams becoming champions").

    The way to measure a league's parity is not to just look at the champion. Rather you should look at the disparity in W/L records of the top 2 or 3 teams and the bottom 2 or 3 teams. IF you do that you will quickly come to realize that Argentina and Brasil have just as much parity as MLS. (Actually this year Brasil has more parity than MLS, but perhaps that's just because it was an expansion year in MLS. Normally its about the same.)
     
  15. Alex_1

    Alex_1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 29, 2002
    Zürich
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    no... it's not that you 'have' to justify your position, it's that you appear to have no means of doing so because you had absolutely no basis at all for a seemingly un-educated, irresponsible and ignorant claim. If you read so many of these sources and can remember them so well, it should be no problem for you to post the links and examples, so go ahead and take a moment to do it. :cool: If you're going to cite an institution for racism, then post the sources. I too am looking forward to seeing this response.
     
  16. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, Yorke had Beckham, Giggs, Keane, and Scholes dominating games and providing amazing service. I'll say it again, McBride or Twellman or Donovan playing with that supporting cast in the EPL would also have torched everybody. Twellman is a great finisher and would have put away his chances, McBride has the physical ability to get and make chances, and Donovan would have just combined very well with that group. And just to put things into perspective, I totally believe that if you put Borgetti in at his peak on that Man U team that he would do just as well. Take Cole and Yorke off of Man U during that time and send either or both to Everton instead and we don't even have the conversation.

    Can I quote Roy Keane, "Of course he'll be better. He's playing with better players."

    Neither Cole nor Yorke were that good (World Class). Cole and Yorke both were made to look good by playing on the league's super team and getting service from amazing wide players. Let's see Yorke or Cole do that playing for Fullham. They won't come close because they aren't that caliber player.

    Remember, Tim Howard was the goal keeper of the year when he played for Man U.
     
  17. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So you're basically admitting you don't have a leg to stand on.

    No proof, no argument, no brain.
     
  18. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Barca youth program where he was playing, yes. La Liga (the parallel to MLS) no.

    I don't think super teams make a league strong. Super leagues make 3 tough games (Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal let's say) but the rest of the games are not as tough. There is definitely a tier of teams that finish between 5th and 15th in the EPL that are moreless the standard. I don't think MLS is in that tier of teams, but MLS definitely produces teams from time to time that would survive there. So I don't think that MLS is that far off. I don't watch enough Argentine or Brazilian games to comment exactly, but it definitely is not light years. One thing that does hurt MLS is that each team's best 11 would be pretty comparable (Columbus Crew that suck bad beat Fullham in a friendly!) to Coca-Cola teams in England or weaker EPL teams. MLS teams couldn't hold up with suspensions and injuries like teams in other leagues. Again, some of the best leagues in the world are in the Americas (Mexico, Argentina, Brazil) and MLS is not going to catch up with them for another 10 years, but the gulf is not huge.

    I think the LA Galaxy is actually one of the three best teams this year when they are all together and motivated. There is a reason they won the Open Cup and are on the verge of doing a double.

    There was a great article on measuring parity based on seeing the number of teams that are within a standard deviation of .500 over a 3 season period (that is to say that everything may break your way one year making you have an awesome record, but those are the breaks not dominance. If you sustain dominance over multiple seasons that is something else). It was interesting to see that in all US sports you will tend to find 2/3 to 3/4 the teams finishing within the standard deviation. I think in football it is 2 wins or 6-10 to 10-6 in 1 year was what you would expect from a .500 team, in baseball I think it ended up being only a 6 game deviation due to the number of games they play and meaning 88-76 or 76-88. I need to find that formula and apply it to soccer leagues.

    I've always considered the strength of a league in Europe to be how many teams are in competition for the final CL spot. At one point late in the season last year Spain had 6 teams within 2 games of the CL spot. However in England it was 3 teams at the same point. Examining that let's you know how deep the strength of the league is (assuming that you can judge the strength of CL teams by how well they do in the CL). Obviously if you judged MLS by that standard MLS would currently have 0 teams in that strength category, but the EPL will also have around 10 to 12 teams that are not that strong.

    Again, that puts Spain at 9 teams deep while England was at 6. Compare that trend over a 5 year period and you can get a good grip on the actual strength of the league. Again, 2 or 3 super weak teams do not bring the overall level down anymore than 2 or 3 super teams bring the level up. However, in Spain where half the games you play are against teams with CL potential that makes a league tough.

    I honestly think that MLS is simply a megateam or two away from being the SPL, Eredivisie, or whatever other 2nd tier league in Europe. That is essentially all that separates MLS from those leagues. Its a hard comparison to make though. On the other hand the Mexican league is much stronger than Holland or Scotland.
     
  19. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia

    Go back and revisit Yorke's stats before his move to Man Utd when he played with Aston Villa. He was averaging 15-20 goals a season for the Villans. Have McBride done that consistently for Fulham? Have Twellman done that thus far?

    If McBride is as good as you seem to think why is it that Fulham has hovered over the relegation zone for so many seasons? Has he even played Champions League football? He has had a dominant season in England yet in his career and he is now in his 30's and will start going downhill soon. He's average face it. Will NEVER be half the player that Yorke/Cole was in their prime.

    And don't even talk about the one season wonder that Tim Howard is. Where is he now? Let me answer for you........ riding the pine at Manchester United because he is NOT Premiership class!

    When you see Man U go out and pick up a goalkeeper in his 30's (Van der Sar) and they have a young goalkeeper in Howard, and he (Van de Sar) starts all Premiership and Champion's League games, it simply means that he (Howard) sucks. It's that simple :D
     
  20. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    or perhaps we could look at the LA Rodney King riots, after all british society reflects the US much more closely than it does France.

    anyway, he didn't claim to live in a racist free society, he was talking about racism in football, or more specifically in premiership football.

    you are not posting what was reported in our press, you are posting a baseless fact-free diatribe.

    maybe when the USA's house is in order on the issue of racism, you can start criticising other countries. i expect it will be a while...
     
  21. Chewmylegoff

    Chewmylegoff Member

    Jan 26, 2004
    London
    yorke was dropped by manyoo for two reasons:

    a) his form declined to the point that he was a shadow of his former self

    b) they brought van nistelrooy
     
  22. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    There's no comparison. Yorke at his peak was far far more successful than McBride has been so far.
    Half-season wonder more like.

    Sucks at present. Still has plenty of years to turn it around.
     
  23. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually my point *is* that McBride is average. And McBride is average in the downside of his career with a much weaker supporting cast. Sure Yorke had some great seasons, but as I said originally, I think you put McBride on Man U from 1997 to 2002 and McBride scores 16+ goals per season. And he is average for EPL standards. I think you'd find that most strikers would do better starting on Man U than playing where they are currently. I just think that Yorke is overrated. Not that he wasn't good as he was a good player, but he was never in the class of Cantona, Keane, Giggs, or the other truly world class players at Man U over the last 15 years. He just benefited by playing surrounded by world class players.
     
  24. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Why not? He's not world-class yet. And he's playing for Barca now. Say, he becomes world-class in 3 years. And say he began playing soccer at age 5. That would mean, during the process of him becoming world-class, he was at Barca's A-team 20% of the time.

    What do you mean by "tough games"? There is more talent at Chelsea than the entire Mexican league. So I think you have to factor-in every team when measuring the strength of the league.

    Hmm... I don't quite agree with that method. Correct me if I'm wrong, but using that method then (in a hypothetical scenerio) if half the teams in the league are way above .500 one season and the same group of teams are way below .500 the next season, then total parity is achieved. Right? But of course if that happens, then it would mean the league is very UNbalanced.

    What matters is NOT the number of teams that are within a standard deviation of .500 over a 3 season period but RATHER the average number of league positions that are within a standard deviation of .500 in each season over a 3 season period.

    That's defintely a decent way to judge the parity of a league. However, I still think you have to look at the top and bottom teams as well.

    Come on now. There are at least 4 teams in the Eredivisie that no Mexican league team comes close to. How could the MFL be much stronger?
     
  25. Eliezar

    Eliezar Member+

    Jan 27, 2002
    Houston
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time I see the opposite side of the coin. My arguement would be that Messi is going to become world class whether he plays for River, Barca, or Torpedo Moscow. Barca was where he proved it, but that he had it before he proved it. I think there are other players that bloom late that are a product of their league though...Shearer comes to mind here.


    What I mean is that you play Chelsea in less than 6% of your games so Chelsea being tough does not mean that much if the rest of the league isn't that good. It doesn't matter if Chelsea is the best team ever, you still only play them twice a year. You can play them that much by just being drawn into their CL group or playing against them in the knockout stages.


    Sure.


    They matter, but I just don't think they are indicative as they are generally outliers.


    Eh? I think if you take the Eredivisie top to bottom and have each team play home and away against an equal seeded Mexican team that Mexico wins 2/3 of the games. And if the two leagues combined Feyenoord, Ajax, and PSV would not be the only teams winning the league. Mexico is easily the most underrated league in the world. Eventually the national and club trophies will start coming in for them from the conmebol competitions and that will start to bring in more respect for the MFL.
     

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