Messi is great. I don't think he is at Maradona's level yet. Then, he would have to battle Pele. I don't want to hear that discussion until he wins a world cup. Even if he does not ever win a world cup, he would have to take his team to two world cup finals. Maradona, Ronaldo "O Fenomeno", Zidane took their team to two finals. Ronaldo was also part of a team that won the world cup when he was just 17. So, Ronaldo has won two world cups and has seen three finals. Pele is of course the king with three world cup titles. Messi has got to do well in world cups to be mentioned with the likes of Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo and Zidane. The upcoming Copa America will be a good test for him. If he is not careful, Neymar will steal the show from him. Robinho stole the show from him in the last Copa America. Messi may just be the greatest european clup player ever. However, the best ever is premature.
He's won it all at the club level but he's got a lot of work to do with the Argentine national team. If he wins the World Cup and Copa America, then he'll deserve being labeled as one of the very best. On the other hand, some of these things often go down to luck or special circumstances. Who knows what might happen between now and when Messi turns 30? Since he's a hardworking player, I wont doubt his abilities or potential. Nevertheless, Messi needs to be careful and avoid any career-threatening injuries or personal mishaps. He needs to be at his best if he wants to compare himself with the World's greatest footballers. Last but not least, he cant do the job all by himself. Argentina should also have a good group of players to accompany Messi in their major tournaments.
I think already Messi should be considered one of the best already. He may very well be in the top ten already. However, if he wins a world cup or takes his team to two world cup finals, then he will be in the top 3 players of all time. He will surpass Ronaldo Nazario when he does that. However, it is still going to be hard for him to surpass Maradona and Pele. He has to remain healthy. Look what happened to Ronaldo Nazario who made just as much noise as Messi is making now when he played for Barcelona and his first year at Inter before he got injured. Messi won't have to do it all by himself as Argentina is loaded with talented players including Pastore who will play a critical role in the next world cup.
Personally speaking, I don't think Messi has to surpass Pele or Maradona. For his own sake, I hope he does end up winning the World Cup at some point in his career, just as I hope Cristiano Ronaldo gets the same opportunity as well. It would be very nice for a footballer to achieve both club and national success, since it is a rare sight to see nowadays. I think Argentina's golden moment might arrive in 2014 because they do, indeed, possess a handful of talented players. Hopefully Messi doesn't end up having to do it all by himself, although you never know what might happen between now and the next World Cup. Only time will tell...
as in disproportionately talented in the offensive end? yeah... we could win it if we time travel back a 50 years or so, and employ all of pulga/tevez/Kun/Pipita/Pocho at the same time...with a hard-ball fellas in Masche/Yacob et al in midfield and Pareja to top it off. Back to reality...? what are the chances? let's replicate an El Raton or an el cabezon...
no he is not yet in theTOP10 and he will have to prove and fight more to get there ... If he will win next WC14 and supposedly he was playing great for another 3,4 seasons he will be in TOP10 #3 belonged to Cruyff, a legend who REVOLUTIONIZED the games! Messi is great but he did NOT do anything to that sense ... I don;t see how Messi can surpass Cruyff .... even wining 1 WC + 1 WC final - lOOK AT r9 ...
Messi is a great player but like Garrincha he is a specialist that excels above all else in dribbling. Pele and Maradona, on the other hand, where incredible dribblers, passers and headers. When you look at Messi's greatest plays they are all much the same. When you look at Maradona's or Pele's you have a wide variety of skills being used. However, in Messi's defense his concentration and will to win is superior. Pele always seemed a bit cold and uninvolved while Maradona was a meltdown waiting to happen.
first I just answer the post saying that: IF Messi will go on winning 1 WC or 2 WC finals he will go down as #3 just behind Pele and Maradona. Now I'd even grant him with 1 WC wining + 1 WC final (just like Ronaldo did in 98 to 02) and say he would NOT be able to steal Cruyff's place (as #3 in most list) IMO: the TOP5 (extend to TOP10) all time should leave something to history of the games, not just trophies, goals and some great display. For example: #1 Pele (3WC's + 1000+goals, brought Santos to become a great club ONCE and he stopped the civil war in Africa), UNIQUE #2 Maradona brought Argentina a WC, and built up Napoli became a champions once in lifetime, not to mention his "best ever techniques" that Players would only learn from (inclduding Messi) - very UNQIQUE #3 Crruyff carried Ajax to become 3times UCL winner on the row, a record for such small team, besides his "incomparable inteligence and reading games" as UNIQUE .... he was TOTAL FOOTBALL, a onetime great revolution in football tactics, he invented some moves that last 1000years in history #4 Beckenbauer: the best ever from DM to CB and a GOLDENRULE for generations later to look up to ... very UNIQUE #5 Di Stefano: He was and is Real Madrid. W//o Him Realw ould not be a great club until now especially in UCL fame and record. Besides his versatility as he could play anywhere at very high level - UNIQUE Let's just STOP here, as I could go on and on with them top3 ... Now, back to Messi, he is indeed a great talent, a goodbreed to become all time great, but nothing so much special about him - he is just LUCKY to be born in a great Barca dynasty inherited from Rijkaard + Ronaldinho and the credits: he helped them and make it better. Hence, Messi does not possess a "criteria" (special and UNIQUE) to replace the TOP5 best all time = so far NO ONE, and admittedly, Messi is the 2d to O fenomeno who made the world "THINK" they could erase those names.
At WC98, people all said O fenomeno was only 21 , and .... Unless Messi will move to prove in another league with lesser team years later? yes possible and... lets see. deep down its just my own opinion.
he hasnt had the injuries or breakdowns that R9 had, dosnt seem to have the weight problems that he had plus he seems to have a non crazy lifestyle, so chances are he should have a long carrear
I am not comparing Messi to R9. The context is whether he will be in TOP3 or TOP5 all time - given chance he will have long career (than R9) surely
I understand what you are trying to say. And I respect every name in your Top5 players as they are the same as in my Top5. But two of the names on that list don't have a WC title - one has lost a final, while the other one hasn't done anything on NT level. I thought you valued that in players as an important criteria for all-time greatness. If Messi wins a WC title, continues his club form, performances and trophy collection, I don't see why he wouldn't get in this Top5. Which player in the past has played the role Messi plays for Barca and scored 50+ goals and given 23 assists? He doesn't have anything special? Come on! At 23 he is about to become a topscorer in the CL for a third year in a row, he is the third top scorer in the history of his club and he keeps getting better every season it seams. I think we are watching a special player do special things/better things every season and many wont appreciate him until he retires. I'm sure that when he is done, he would leave a special mark on the history of this game. You say he needs to move to another team in another league. I say he doesn't need that. It's also hard to stay on the top with the same team and keep doing what he is doing. It is called longevity. Did Pele achieve success with any other club besides Santos? Did DiStefano do anything with another club besides Real M? Did Beckenbauer achieve success with another club other than Bayern M? Great players play for great teams and do great thing over a long period of time. Messi can do the same for Barca - he is on his way right now. Why should that be held against him? At the end, I think a WC title and longevity is what is going to put him probably in that Top5 list of all-time great players. Who will he replace on that list? I don't know, we will see once Leo retires.
Well, the greats didn't have it perfect and it hurt them. Maradona had his drug problems (which ultimately kicked him out of the '94 WC), and he was out of shape in the latter of his career. Pele was injured during the two WCs when he was at his prime. Ronaldo was unfit for the '98 WC and was horribly injured after that, that he never reached his potential. And Zidane was injured in the '02 WC and was a late bloomer. If Messi can avoid these things like you said, injury and personal problems, then he could potentially catch up to them based on the skill level he has. However, winning the WC takes a good of amount of greatness that Messi has to show, and so far its been limited. But yes if he has major success in both club and NT he could be compared to Maradona and even Pele.
Agree there and wrap up: There were so many "unexpected incident" that blocked or limited the players achievement in WC stage: 1- WC62 & WC66: Pele knocked off injured (supposed his best form there) 2- WC78: Cruyff was threatening and was forced to be out of competition (otherwise he would lead the team to revenge his last 74 - Holland was runner up 2nd time) 3- WC86: Zico was not fit (the dreamteam exit early for 2nd chance) 4- WC90: Maradona was not fully fit (Argentina was runner up) 5- WC98: Ronaldo was suffered a weird sickness - unknown, while Romario was not fit just as the games about to start. (Zidane and his co 6- WC02: Zidane was injured few days before it started Those "unexpected INCIDENTS" happened to the "best players" at those years and were in their best form. Hence we hope Messi will overcome any unfortunate situation to shine in next WC. First bold, I have explained many times before ... and you just ignored them: - Cruyff lost the final but he was still the best player in that tournament and that COUNTED - (much more than a Materazzi who won the WC06, by provoking dirty trick). What made Cruyff so special was his tactics anticipation and intelligence as UNIQUE. - Di Stefano was a special case as his time was early while WC was still not worldwidely represent the whole but more like UEFA/Europe concentrate. So his 5xUCL dominated on top of his OBVIOUS talent and versatility as UNIQUE. Seond bold: Messi "simulated" exactly Cruyff position for Ajax and Holland "total football" as a "center forward" of false #9. - However, Cruyff covered MUCH MORE ground to affect the game (than Messi now ). Cruyff got 4,5 years of 30+goals in his best form despite playing DEEPER. - Pele: played also similar position forward: 10 seasons 40-100goals, and 5 seasons of 50+ goals -Zico played depper and got 5 years of 40to 65goals a season in best form. It's a SHAME no one collected assists of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Zico, Garrincha ... as I am sure they got more in average than Messi in his best form of their best years (talking of 5 to 10, not only 1 wonder year) Last bold, Like I said earlier, even Messi would go on winning 1 WC, I doubt he will be ranked among TOP3 or even TOP5, as he lacked of the "UNIQUEness" of those in TOP5. The UNIQUEness that SEPARATED the TOP5. Score more goals is good but not a deciding factor for being greatness. Many players scored more goals than Zidane at same position, but Zidane still shone bright. or .. it's NOT becuase Ronaldo scoring lots of goals that made him a great legend but more like his style of scoring goal = Note that I never rated Ronaldo in TOP5 even in his best form)
I'm sure you are not aware that Maradona played a different position and that the best teams scored ~1.5 GPG back then in Seria A ... right?