Do you think players such as dalglish and krankl wouldn't be fit to compare with Suarez and Ibrahimovic?
good Correction - rightly so I just meant he did win 4 trophies for Liverpool 2001 ... well unexpectedly (compared to Rivaldo 0 , or Raul 2 .. expectedly with their teams) From 80- late 90's (before UCL changed the format) UEFA cup was very prestigious ... however 2001 was a "border line" case just as the format changed ... BUt I guess at that time, the voters (pro) were still getting the left over impression (of UEFA cup in the past)?
I meant just the winners of Ballon D' or. I think Blokhin, Simonsen, Keegan, Rummenigge and Rossi weren't the same class as Messi, C. Ronaldo, Suarez and Ibrahimovic. I like football in that era - Brazil 1982, FC Liverpol and the others were great, I wrote just about the individual efforts of those players and I certainly didn't write about Platini, Zico, Maradona, Falcao, ....
Yes I do. Both of them were great players and maybe they deserved to win Ballon D' or, but Krankl played for the most of his career in the Austrian league and Dalglish was in the same level with Keegan or Rummenigge, not with Messi or Ronaldo.
Unfortunately not tracked for the UEFA Cup, I see now. The guy counted it manually for the early EPL years, that's what I know. OPTA also uses strict criteria for the assists (no rebounds etc.) so that makes the discrepancy interesting. This short preview article mentioned Owen, Raul and Figo as the main favourites for the 2001 Ballon d'Or: http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...-oro-oggi-parigi-sceglie-owen.html?ref=search
Rivaldo in 2001 and in that period (00/01-01/02) has the hat-trick against Valencia, the brace (should be hattrick) against Real Madrid, hattrick against AC Milan. He was as clutch as anyone has been, and it wasn't about the quantity of goals but the quality/degree of difficulty. In 2001, I believe, Barca and Liverpool met a few times. I'll have a look to see how Owen and Rivaldo would have fared against each other. I think Barca not being competitive during that season would have naturally hurt Rivaldo's standing but his perfomances, especially in big games and generally carrying that side would convince me to place him atleast ahead of Owen, perhaps not Raul, but certainly the likes of Beckham and Figo. @PuckVanHeel
You can't make that comparison if in one era South Americans were not eligible to win the European award (late-70s/early-80s) while in the other era (today) they were eligible. You give the current era an advantage by including the best South Americans while you exclude the best South Americans from the other era and then conclude "current era is better than past era".
The hat-trick against AC Milan was in 2000, not in 2001. Case will be stronger if you can show sources of that time that ranked Rivaldo alongside/ahead of Raul. That's always the problem; that people/journalists rank players with different criteria. If quality of the goals would be a mandatory criteria then Ibrahimovic has a good shout of cracking the top three every year. Some of the goals you mention above are also relatively 'simple' of course. The first goal against Madrid was effectively created by Luis Enrique and Kluivert, putting him one-on-one vs the goalkeeper (I wanted to check the offside goal, which was cancelled due to team-mates interfering with play in the ref's eyes). To a certain extent the 'clutch' performance against Valencia can be placed in context too, because if he had performed 'clutch' every week (to put it firmly), then this battle for fourth place hadn't been necessary. 2001 UEFA Cup semi-final 1st leg (0-0), according to the Barca magazine: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2001/04/06/pagina-14/431699/pdf.html# Rivaldo 2 stars, Owen 2 stars. Highest rated Barcelona forward: Overmars. Highest rated Liverpool forward: Owen + Heskey 2001 UEFA Cup semi-final 2nd leg (1-0 loss) http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2001/04/20/pagina-14/435593/pdf.html# Rivaldo 1 star, Owen 2 stars. Highest rated Barca forward: Overmars. Highest rated Liverpool forward: Heskey 2001 Champions League group stage (1-3 win) http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/2001/11/21/pagina-2/465472/pdf.html# Rivaldo 3 stars, Owen 2 stars. Highest rated Barca forward: Kluivert. Highest rated Liverpool forward: Owen Same can be said about Liverpool of course, and the England national team (yes, I know Brazil had form issues in 2001). It was probably a general 'problem', around 2001 there were no real elite teams like nowadays, or even a few years earlier in the late 90s. The various polls disagreed about Figo. Figo sort of led his team to the championship with 17-20 assists and 9 goals. Don Balon magazine had Figo as #1 best rated foreign player, thus automatically ahead of Rivaldo.
Blokhin and Rummenigge were surely better than the biting Suarez and the inconsistent talent Ibra. I do not know why you name Suarez in those names?
Both Raul adn FIgo had the advantage of Real wining (at least) Liga and Superliga while Barca of Rivaldo was empty handed. 1- In term on individual shining star 2001 Rivaldo, Figo, Owen, Raul, Beckham 2- In term of overall TEAM achievement: Owen (4) >= Raul (2) = Figo (2) >= Beckham (1) >= Rivaldo (0)
Wasn't it already demonstrated quite convincingly that Rivaldo wasn't the #1 individual star in 2001?
1- did not you ever get the IDEA that it's so difficult (or unrealistic) to be the best player without wining anything? 2- Did you know the so called "after the fact" kinda talk? 3- Messi won WC14 Goldenball, and could someone or YOU demonstrate that he won it "convincingly" to the likes James or Robben? So what the h3ck this thread is all about if everyone is "convincing winner"???? what are you doing here?
I would comprehend if your comment is CLEAR and CORRECT! but ... either your comment is nonsensical or pre-assumed WRONG? You said: Wasn't it already demonstrated quite convincingly that Rivaldo wasn't the #1 individual star in 2001? For your info: 1- FIFA WPOY + Ballon Dor winning is so DIFFERENT to a so called "individual star" - but purely ("arguably") best player who won things in that season 2- You introduced a high double-standard - here you FOLLOWED MEDIA (Ballon D'or voters) to state Rivaldo was not the #1 - in other thread, you DEFIED MEDIA (ballon Dor' voters) to state Suarez was #5 (IN YOUR OPINION)
Except that he was talking about Suarez in the season of 13-14, a period not considered by any global awards.
Understood, and he actually claimed "Suarez WAS #5" (in English grammar = the past tense or something happened) which was totally wrong = it never happened and it will "hardly " happen in next month when Ballon Dor 2014 announce (BTW .. he did NOT say "in my view or my opinion ")
Because, again, the Ballon d'Or doesn't cover seasons. So Suarez's position won't reflect that. He's hardly helped by all his biting in that regard.
now that's more reasonable OK, in my opinion, Suarez was indeed TOP10 best skillful player and especially last season -including WC14 However, that is a WC year, so more players with good WC will be ahead of him naturally. Besides the "biting" effect, I am not so sure Suarez would make TOP5 with same reason WC ... (like Muller, Lahm, Neuer and James already 4, on top of regular (good) performers in Messi CR7 Neymar Robben ... and that make 8 already. That left him fighting with others like DiMaria, Diego Costa, Ibra, Kroos, Bale , Kun ... of the remained 2,3 spots !!! So it confirmed my saying above TOP10 ... at his best! ======================================= A GOOD HINT: If someone "thinks" he knows more of Suarez? he should go back and revise Suarez games and goals ... (despite of his good scoring number 31 as EPL topscorer, he HARDLY scored against many big teams)
On top of this it can be remarked that the 'fouls per game' in the existence of the Premier League saw a peak in 2001-02 apparently, according to OPTA. Unfortunately they don't tell the number, but it is available to see it has progressively gone down with about ~25% since 2005-06.
Actually it was the reversed case. Heskey played as a wide FW while Owen more of the main striker in box (quick in counter and sharp shooter) Heskey was famous for his hold up the ball for Owen (or other striker) ----------- Owen ----------------------------- -----------------------------Heskey ------------ Smicer ---- Gerard ------------------- Murphy ---------------------- Hamman------------------- Babel -----------------------------------Carragher -------------Henchor ------Hyppia--------------- Problem with Barca and Rivaldo was that coach kept changing formation - a bit too often So Rivaldo was LFW in 4 3 3 , but sometimes as CAM in 4 3 1 2 and other times as SS in 4 4 1 1 (the latter 2 were Rivaldo favorite position)
Now checked and more detail added. Ballon d'Or winners with 35% of the 1st place votes or less: Suarez (1960) 21.05% [4/19] Sammer (1996) 25.49% [13/51] Sivori (1961) 26.32% [5/19] Best (1968) 28.00% [7/25] Law (1964) 28.57% [6/21] Belanov (1986) 30.77% [8/26] Müller (1970) 30.77% [8/26] Ronaldo (2002) 30.77% [16/52] Albert (1967) 33.33% [8/24] Keegan (1978) 34.61% [9/26] Ballon d'Or winners with 65% of the maximum points or less Best (1968) 48.4% [61/125] Sivori (1961) 48.4% [46/95] Sammer (1996) 56.4% [144/255] Suarez (1960) 56.8% [54/95] Law (1964) 58.1% [61/105] Weah (1995) 58.7% [144/245] Matthews (1956) 58.8% [47/80] Müller (1970) 59.2% [77/130] Rivera (1969) 63.8% [83/130] Eusebio (1965) 63.8% [67/105] Belanov (1986) 64.6% [84/130] Beckenbauer (1972) 64.8% [81/125] Ronaldo (2002) 65.0% [169/260] Ballon d'Or winners without plurality of 1st place votes Suarez 1960 - 4 votes (Puskas 1960 5/19 votes) Law 1964 - 6 votes (Suarez 1964 6/19 votes too) Simonsen 1977 - 7 votes (Keegan 1977 11/25 votes) Sammer 1996 - 13 votes (Ronaldo 1996 16/51 votes) Figo 2000 - 20 votes (Zidane 2000 24/51 votes) Ronaldo 2002 - 16 votes (Roberto Carlos 2002 23/52 votes)
Figo should of won it in 1999 he was by far the best in the world. the amount of goals he created for Rivaldo was immense, it feels like they felt sorry for him and gave it to him the following year
Not correct, Rivaldo was a beast in 1999 = absolute winner no question asked. Figo only got <9ass in 1999 and a few to Rivaldo It was 2001 (in Real) that Figo did play his best ever season with 19 ass = he won WPOY there