The War on Voting

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I know my neighborhood. It is heavily Hispanic, mostly Salvadoran. There are two, sometimes three families in a household. Some are here legally, others are not. The county councilman is of Hispanic descent. He has a good operation going of getting the Hispanic vote. I have my suspicions and stated so. I don't know of the percentage and don't claim to know so. It is based on my observation and knowledge of my neighborhood. Now perhaps I could stand outside on election day and take a poll asking if the voters are citizens. I doubt that I will get honest answers.
     
  2. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

    Nov 14, 2002
    Just Barely Outside the Beltway
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    If I understand correctly, Falc's argument is that barely literate undocumented laborers will risk detection and deportation, just to feel the psychic rewards of participation and inclusion of casting a vote? And this is happening in large enough numbers to swing elections despite not being uncovered by the Dept of Justice under Bush that was eager to show any evidence of voter fraud?

    The question is, don't we more, not fewer, of these civic-minded, resourceful illegal immigrants? They're more American than most Americans! Amnesty for all! Vote away, you dirty illegals!
     
  3. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Wow, that is some description. I thought you liberals liked immigrants.
     
  4. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You need to recharge your sarcasm meter.
     
  5. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh shit, you're right! I never thought about it that way. That's good news for the states that allow no-excuse absentee balloting in 28 states! Those students can get an absentee ballot. The kids from the other 22 states can just fly home on Election Day, right? Nobody has class or anything like that. Brilliant.

    You are so goddamned brilliant it blows my mind. Why don't students just fly home to New York to vote!! That makes so much sense! Certainly makes more sense than my idea that we should let out-of-state students vote with Student IDs the school gives them for free.
     
  6. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    First, voting is not transient. One does not change residency so that a vote can be cast conveniently. Second, let me explain the difference between no-excuse and excuse absence. No excuse means that an individual may cast an absentee ballot for any reason at all. If I don't want to stand in line to vote, then I will go the route of an absentee ballot. An excuse absence generally is for those who are not going to be physically able to go to their polling booth. Guess what, attending school away from your jurisdiction (does not even have to be out of state) is one of those excuses. You need to do better than Wiki for your information. Try this site for some edification concerning absentee ballots:

    http://www.longdistancevoter.org/absentee_voting_rules#.UGRL1bJlTbg

    I hope this lesson on civics does not blow your mind.
     
  7. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    I just listened to a voicemail message from the local GOP telling me to expect my absentee ballot (which I did not request) in the mail. Stop this horrible Obama, etc. They think I'm one of them.
     
  8. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are no explicit exemptions for students in Arkansas, Illinois, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, and Texas. What if some voter-fraud zealot comes in and determines that student is no longer a good excuse for being out of the county on election day? What if the state cracks down on students who return home on weekends (aka during early vote) but not on election day? Michigan requires all first-time voters to vote in person. What if the student turns 18 while attending school in another state? SOL for them?

    The larger picture, of course, is that there should be no reason why a person can't vote in the place they sleep at night. If a student is going to live in Kansas during the summer and Washington State for the school year, why can't they vote in Kansas during summer elections and Washington during school-year elections? Why can't we, when we can download porn at 500 bajillion mbps and stream Champions League games around the world instantaneously, have an online voter database where everyone with a federally-issued ID card can go to any polling place in the country, ask for a ballot for wherever they consider home, and vote?
     
  9. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Of course the courts and the census will tell you that you are wrong.
     
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  10. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    There is no need for specific exemptions for students. If one is absent, then that is all that is needed. Does not matter if you are a student or not. Being away for vacation, business, education, it does not matter. Those states allow for absentee ballots.

    There is a very good reason why people do not vote where they happen to sleep that night. Elections have local consequences. Even if there are not state/county/parish offices on a particular general election ballot, there will always be the ballot for the House of Representative. There may be a Senate seat as well.

    The courts and the census do not tell me wrong. An individual may register in a new state/jurisdiction if they change their residency. They may not vote in that jurisdiction because they are there for a temporary period of time. I can't be a residence of Maryland but vote in Florida because I happen to be there on the 6th of November.
     
  11. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Two things:

    1) My point was not that being a student is a good excuse, my point was that the lack of an explicit student exemption could allow a voter-fraud zealot Secretary of State in those states leeway to prohibit student absentee balloting. Sure, it'd get struck down in the courts, but in that amount of time, that zealot would disenfranchise thousands of students because of his or her dickishness. And since the entire point of this voter-fraud debate is over potentials and not any actual evidence, what's to say these Secretaries-of-State couldn't just disband all absentee voting?

    2) To be a resident of Florida you have to live there for 30 days. No paperwork update is necessary. I've already posted this.
     
  12. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    So it is OK for you to conjecture that a government official will take away the voting rights of students due to attending a school outside of their local jurisdiction even though the system has always allowed students to vote via absentee ballots? Really? You have to do better than that.

    There is nothing to prohibit anyone from changing residence if they qualify to do so. In fact, college students do so to take advantage of in-state tuition. But the implications of changing residence reaches far greater than the ability to go to the local polling booth on the day of a general election. And if an individual does change residency, then it is done so for some permanent reason, not for a one-day event. So requiring that individual to transfer their driver's license and take other actions to declare residency is proper.

    BTW, absentee ballots are not limited to those who are out of state. A student who resides in Clearwater and attends a school in Tallahassee is able to use an absentee ballot.
     
  13. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Dummy, courts have ruled that students (and soldiers) can/are deemed to be temporarily domiciled where they live during college and may register to vote in that location rather than where they are considered residents. Therefore, they don't need to change the car registration or declare themselves residents, etc. (no matter how much you want them to, all in the name of preventing voter fraud).

    Alternatively they can vote absentee to their residential elections if they so choose (I did so during my 4 years of college).
     
  14. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As does Tennessee.
    A student who resides in Memphis and attends school in Knoxville cannot use an absentee ballot. In fact, I have a number of students who stay on campus but live across town. There is a real concern that they will be unable to vote, particularly the ones that don't have any identification or any other acceptable ID (utility bills, etc.).
     
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  15. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Depends on the state. If a state allows for an individual domiciled in the state but not a resident to register, it can do so. If the state requires residency, than the individual must meet those requirements.
     
  16. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Then Tennessee needs to get its act together.
     
  17. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tennessee's act is together. This policy wasn't a mistake. It was intentional.
     
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  18. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes they do, in many, many ways.

    Among them is to remove that voter photo ID law.
     
  19. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    In 1974 it became possible in New York state for a student resident in the state but living at a college elsewhere in the state to vote "at the college." This definition fit me.

    There was a special registration process for those who wished to do this, and one could only vote in elections common to both districts-- essentially President, VP, Senator and initiatives. These ballots were not available at all polling places-- one had to travel to the county clerk's office IIRC. One could not vote in primaries, but they did register us under party affiliation.

    When I went to register I had a pretty good idea of the behaviors of local (Republican) politicians; since I would not be able to vote in the primaries anyway, I registered Republican (although believing I was being silly) because it cost me nothing to do so.

    A shuttle was organized for us by the school and on election day we all went in to vote, about a dozen or fifteen strong.

    Every single person in the shuttle was told their registrations had errors on them-- with one exception. All of the others had registered as Democrats, and were not allowed to vote. I was.

    Anecdotal. Just an unsubstantiated story. No need to believe it.

    Just sayin'.
     
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  20. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    From my local paper:

    Nuns Call Voter ID Law Unfair


    As the November election nears, the 86-year-old nun and retired teacher fears the state's controversial Voter ID law will keep her and other senior citizens from having their say in who leads the country.

    Sister Gallagher and 23 other nuns from the Our Lady of Peace residence, the retirement home for the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary congregation, lack the identification needed to vote in November. Another 11 nuns recently received state-issued identification cards. One 95-year-old sister had to wait four hours at the Driver Licensing Center in Dunmore.

    But these nuns say while the state's voter identification law is an inconvenience to them, they have people who will drive them to the center. They also have other sisters who will gladly help them find the paperwork needed for the card.

    They worry about the senior citizens who do not have that help."I think it's very, very unkind, unfair and ridiculous," Sister Gallagher said of the law, which earlier this month state Supreme Court sent back to the Commonwealth Court for a judge to determine whether voters would be disenfranchised by the law​


    I hesitate to use the phrase "skin in the game" for several reasons, but I volunteer at this home. A couple days a week, I'm reading Milton's Paradise Lost to a sister who can't see well enough anymore.
     
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  21. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Oh, and here's an OpEd from the same paper

    ...why haven't there been any vote fraud prosecutions? There are multiple answers, practical and legal.

    As noted by former Allegheny County solicitor Michael H. Wojcik in a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette guest column, the reward isn't worth the risk. Risk robbing a bank and you might get some money. Risk impersonating someone at a polling place and your reward will be, what? An extra vote? Though voter I.D. advocates don't seem to realize it, the existing state penalty for vote fraud is up to seven years in prison and a $15,000 fine. That doesn't include other potential charges including forgery and identity theft....

    The voter I.D. dog won't hunt because there is no prey. The law is a shameless attempt at vote suppression, and a waste of public resources, that should be scrapped.​

     
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  22. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ya know what? Falc, keep posting. It was a mistake to try and get you to go do some learning. The other posters here will shame you into doing some research on your own anyway.
     
  23. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wanna bet?
     
  24. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I bet you six hours of responding to all of Schapes' posts that Falc learns something from all of this.


    :D:geek:
     

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