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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Sep 2, 2011.
An opinion that is badly misinformed and willfully ignorant, I should add.
Thankfully there are idiots around here to correct me.
Much like every other argument on this pointless thread.
Falc, let's try some Socratic method here.
Me: Clean elections are a worthy public policy goal. The same people who are putting in Voter ID laws ostensibly to clean up elections are also restricting early voting. How do you account for both of these initiatives if the goal of the initiatives is to clean up our elections? If you can't account for both of them, then what do you think these two priorities have in common instead?
I eagerly await your reply.
I guess you're right, if we assume that 50% of the posts here are in support of voter ID laws, which are stupid on every level?
So then we can assume that requiring individuals to provide ID to board a plane is stupid as well, correct?
Which, for one, has always pissed me off, boarding a plane being one of my stated constitutional rights, and all. It's a commercial activity, dumbass.
Plus, I think there are pretty well documented reasons why such a requirement - and related security measures - are necessary to ensure that commercial air travel is safe.
Unlike, say, evidence that shows that voter fraud exists in the US.
Funny how even Socrates' society would not have stood for denying the rights of those they considered citizens at the time in this way .. And we are talking about what 4500 years ago iirc? But current posters seemoro have no problem doing so .. Way to show society's progress humanity!
Dave - Don't expect a partisan response from me. I do not represent either and don't care much for the parties. My opinions are based on personal observations. When I moved back to Maryland some years back, I was shocked at the lack of accountability to determine whether I was eligible to vote and whether I was actually the individual signing the application. I went to the county office to turn in my registration. The fact that the question on citizenship is determined by checking the correct box is appalling. At least ask for city and state of birth. If necessary, explain how citizenship was attained. Putting a statement that if you check no, then don't complete this form is ridiculous.
I don't recall how I registered in Virginia. I am thinking it may have been when I got my driver's license. The Commonwealth does not have you register with a party and they really had a weak primary process. It has been years, so I don't recall if I had to show an ID when I did vote there.
Then there is the fact that we have organizations register voters en masse. I have a problem that official ballot examples are sent in English and Spanish. If an individual has obtained US citizenship, that person must have some command of the English language to go through the process. My parents had to do it. Seriously, how difficult is it to understand the following:
Barack Obama - Democrat
Mitt Romney - Republican
I believe we have non-citizens voting as there are interest groups who assist and likely fill out their registration forms. I don't think those who register are out to break the law. I do think that overzealous groups tell them or encourage them to register and vote. I live in a neighborhood that has many Hispanics, mostly Salvarorans but a good also from Honduras and Guatemala. Many were at my polling booth four years ago, including my mother's next door neighbor, who speaks very little English.
I am not asking for strict requirements. But there should be some to ensure that the system is authentic. I don't think that is asking for much.
Really? Did the terrorists of 9-11 hide their identities? Would it have made a difference? An airline ticket allows someone's ass to take a seat. Whether that is my ass or your's is irrelevant. The TSA agent checks to see if my name on the boarding pass matches that on my ID. It does nothing to indicate whether I will hijack or blow up the plane. So it does little for security. The TSA agent has no idea who is going through that gate and what that person's intent may be.
I keep hearing that ID requirements take away a person's right to vote. How? What about the requirement to register? Why do I have to do so to invoke my right? And why is there a deadline to register in order to exercise my right? Come on Socrates, give me an answer.
We are talking about taking away the right to vote for those WHO ALREADY HAVE IT... Under the guise of preventing the nonexistent or at worst infinitesimal possibility of fraud.....If they asked for these I'd requirements after an election I may somewhat understand, as we would have 2 years (or four for another presidential election) to work out a any kinks or make sure it is no burden on citizens.. Currently what is being done is a naked attempt at restricting the vote whom they do not like because of the way they vote.. With no real backing on facts or common sense.. Which is why the courts have struck down most of these attempts
well, i'm outta here. everything cogent to say on the subject was said months ago, lots of it more than once, and i have to say the best arguments and viewpoints haven't been saved for last.
It's hardly a coincidence that this shit is being ramped up right before the election. Who the hell purges voter rolls two months before a presidential election?
And falc, you're seriously arguing that knowing the identity of the people who buy tickets and board planes isn't a security issue? It's also, of course, an issue of economics, since airlines link tickets with individuals; they're not transferable.
ID I mean ( stupid iPhone) and as someone said in front of PA's supreme court iirc.. What is he rush.. Because they sure as heck know they will not be a able to get ID for the hundreds of thousand who'd need it by election day becaus of this law which was brought up so late and it is by definition cumbersome... And for what purpose? To prevent the extremely remote possibility of fraud (which in PA the people proposing the law admitted this thing won't even do that) ....come on dude use (Clinton ) arithmetic(Clinton) maybe it will come in handy ... I am a big proponent of philosophy being taught from middle school up.. But that's too secular an idea for most folks .. Whom I'm sure would rather teach creationism ? in t spirit of full disclosure.. Graduated from college with two majors, one of them in philosophy.. So I am a bit biased on this area
It would be a security issue if the identity was checked prior to boarding. But once you past the moat, it is no different than posting on an internet forum. People are anonymous when they get past security. Anyone can exchange boarding passes and take a different flight. Hell, if you fly Southwest, they don't even know the seat that you are occupying. So having the TSA agent look at my driver's license and then match up my name on the boarding pass should make everyone feel secure.
So if I am reading some of you correctly, the issue with requiring ID to vote is not with the requirement but the timing of it. So if states pass an ID law that goes into effect at the next election, not this one, no problem then. Now if legislation was passed in enough time for this election, there should be no problem either.
No because logistically it will be impossible to put in place these laws without unfairly disenfranchising thousands of legitimate voters.. Going from Pennsylvania's example which is the one I've read /seen about the most.. In the last month or so they managed to get IDs for 7k or so folks whom by complying with this law will vote no matter what happens to it.. But there are hundreds of thousand who still do not have ID and in that bureaucracy of theirs won't be able to get it anyway... Whether because election is too close, ' or DMV and other places are too far to get to.. Or because the people have to work And cannot afford to take a day off right now to get things done... So no it would not be fine or fair to do this for this election...IMO
So the source for these thousands of legitimate voters who would be disenfranchised is the same as those determined that are not eligible to vote?
Did I miss something, or did Falc post several times in this thread without engaging my post?
You can believe it all you want, but the fact is that people have investigated this and proved your belief incorrect
George Mason prof shoots down voter fraud hysteria, on Fox of all places:
"Voter fraud is on the order of winning the lottery...Election officials do take these allegations seriously and investigate them fully. Usually what happens is the allegations come out and then afterwards we find out that maybe someone signed on the wrong line on a poll book or something of that nature. And that's the source of the error, wasn't really that vote fraud has occurred."
Why does it feel like right-leaning posters on this board got collectively stupider in the last year or so?
They're afraid they'll get primaried if they don't?
Perhaps it's just liberals like you thinking you've gotten a lot smarter. Which hasn't happened, BTW.
Nope. Not that.
Well, shit, I've been getting ********ed up ballots then. I get all sort of other crap on mine like senators, representatives, judges, and all sorts of propositions. Hell, one ballot I had to fill out was something like 4 pages long.
I should have complained since it was more than just