The very very circular VAR Thread

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by SamScouse, Apr 16, 2018.

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  1. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What would be the reason for that? The ref handles stoppage time just fine, don't they?
     
  2. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, GREAT point... after all, tiddly-winks probably doesn't evolve either! What about marbles? Did that change at all?

    In case you didn't get what's being discussed, I'm talking about massive, consumer-level, team-oriented sports, the most massive sports in the world, that draw millions if not billions of fans. They ALL evolve over time, in multiple different ways.
     
  3. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    eh? you said ppl should be po'd with the time goal kicks etc take ("it should really piss you off that goal kicks take 6 minutes") .... so I don't understand what your point is now.
     
  4. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Guys- this whole amount of time taking argument is nuts - it's not how much time any given irregularity takes - it's the essence of what is happening during the time that is being taken -
    In th ecase of VAR something is happening that (some of us) at least would strongly rather to not be happening.
     
  5. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Hello, Hobo, is that you?
     
  6. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most of your points in here are about VARs taking too long despite clearly getting a ton of these calls right and fixing a number of missed calls... so how can you then say "what's the bloody rush" with regard to the other stoppages in the game which take up way more time overall than VAR? I don't understand, that seems really contradictory.
     
  7. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #932 EruditeHobo, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    That's a personal preference issue... but yeah, no one has ever argued against that. People used to have similar personal complaints about lots of changes to the game which have come to be ubiquitous in all competitions.
     
  8. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Game-changing missed calls are not the same as monitoring stoppage time; one the refs clearly need help with, the other they don't.
     
  9. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Change the name of this thread to Hobo vs the world. :D :D :D
     
    el-capitano repped this.
  10. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  11. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I don't know the rules of Marbles - another book I haven't read.... ;)
    But You did say all sports evolve.....
    As a matter of fact, snooker/pool is more massive than soccer in some parts of the world (phillipines)
    and that hasn't evolved either.....

    Speaking of evolving football...let's get back to that changing the kick-off rule that bugs me so much in this forced evolution.
    The reason that was changed was because that rule (pretty and aesthetic as it was) served no functional purpose.
    That's was the rationale? Correct?
     
  12. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    For the record I think I generally support Hobo's positions. I'm not entirely sure as I don't read all the posts, counter-posts, counter-counter-posts, counter-counter-counter-posts or any comebacks beyond that,
     
  13. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    One thing I'd suggest that you are not noting though is that most of these goals are not obvious problems in the first place. So, in a lot of cases (the first disallowed Brazil goal vs Venezuela the other night a a good example) they wouldn't really have bothered people quite as much as your argument to rectify all these things tends to suggest that they do bother people - not in the way that the Henry Hand-ball or the Maradona Hand-of-God or stuff like this (which is an argument in favour of both VAR and a Firing Squad)



    Unfortunately - for every one very bad call that obviously screams out to be re-adjudicated there are about 7 close mistaken calls that no-one blames the on-field refs for getting wrong.... and that many of us would rather put up with than put our emotions on stand-by while we chew the cud of this particular rumination....
     
  14. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Well, similar up to the point of interference with the primal emotion involved. I don't think that's ever happened before.... I could be wrong but I don't know of any similar thing
     
  15. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    To back up Sam's position a bit. VAR (however good or bad it is) isn't necessary to play a game of football. Throw-ins and Kick-offs and etc are....
    So, the time wasted from the other stuff is of a necessity. The time wasted during VAR (useful as it may well be) is not of a necessity. *note* - under the current rules tens (perhaps hundreds) of thousands of regulation association games will be played this year without VAR and a few hundred or a few thousand will be played with it.
     
  16. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    problem I have with using the theory of an average for this comparison is that the values are different.

    All games have fre-kicks.
    All games have throw-ins.
    Not all games use VAR.

    Only the games where VAR is actually used to stop the game should be used to determine an average.
     
  17. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This alone makes you a wise man.
     
  18. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, if one were to purposefully remove all context, I could be saying anything! But it's pretty clear -- or it should be -- that we are talking about major sports, with major leagues, that have big governing bodies, and big followings of supporters. All of these types of sports evolve over time, was my point. And it's an accurate one.

    What's the point of that? I don't care that it bugs you.

    Yes, I mean that's another measurement one could take... I'm sure they have the numbers for that too. But that's not really relevant to the measurement they are taking, which is the average disruption of the game by VAR in the macro view, ie the actual time VAR takes on average across a huge number of matches in which VAR could (but isn't guaranteed to) intervene.
     
  19. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My argument is not and has never been "put in VAR because bad calls bother people". I happen to like the VAR rules, and it would "bother" me if they were taken away, but none of that has anything to do with what is or isn't valid about VAR. It bothering or not bothering me has nothing to do with why I think it should be used on the highest level. The VAR rules bothering you the way they do is similarly irrelevant IMO.

    I don't care what does or does not bother people, that's not a good argument to include or exclude anything.
     
  20. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    #945 zaqualung, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019

    Average disruption of the game in Macro view doesn't bloody matter. Var is only involved when it is in involved, in games where it is involved. It is not involved in annoying people by being or by wasting time in games where it does not come into play. It is of no use whatsoever analyzing this number which included vast amounts of games where VAR doesn't happen into the public/viewing consciousness with the target being to see how annoying VAR is in terms of wasted time and impinging on the viewer's consciousness.
    Sure - you can figure out the average of minutes its used across all possible football, but you're engaged in a mathematical folly of figuring out an answer with NO meaning.... ffs .....

    Using your method of analysis would be a bit like a government statistician doing the following:
    (Spoiler Alert for DelayNomo = another of zaq'a wacky ones a-coming at ya ....)

    It's a bit like someone trying to analyze the level of hunger during a bread shortage by analyzing all the stores in a country including the ones that only care to rich people who stockpiled their own grain and have their own bakers and only allow member shoppers like Costco. And then coming up with an analysis figure on how long it takes to actually buy bread when one shops for it ....
    Or, to transubstantiate that .... it's bloody meaningless data .... (If someone goes to the Wolves game and gets home in time for his Mum's tea party on a Saturday before it starts to rain, he doesn't bloody much care that some bugger in sheffield couldn't get home early and got wet because of VAR....
     
  21. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    I'm not saying that it's a good argument - I'm saying that post-facto it's been positioned (by guys like you) as if there was always a burning need to get all these mistakes right. Where as, for the most part, they were water off a duck's back to most people, and it was only the really out there and egregious incidents that actually bugged most people (I can't speak for you or the other pedants abroad) but that;s the gut feeling I get from this whole thing ....
     
  22. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Or put another way-
    If you have pneumonia it doesn't do much good for the doctor to show up and measure your shoelaces ....
    He'll doubtless get the right measurement though .... doctors are pretty sharp ...
     
  23. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    His views on the equivalence of Dirk Kuyt and Yossi benayoun as equivalently gifted midfield creative attackers tend to un-ennoble his wiseness ....
    ;)
     
  24. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    erm, no they're not - usscouse makes that argument more than me (maybe zaq does also, I don't know) . I agree with him generally, in particular the idea that VAR decisions take an average of 55 seconds, which I roll my eyes at.

    the other stoppages are part and parcel of the game and have been forever. they are not a newly-introduced, artificial and completely open-ended delay, caused by waiting for some unseen guy(s) gazing at multiple slo-mo replays and arguing over what did and didn't happen.

    you mentioned goal kicks and FKs, but the time taken for them includes teams organizing themselves, both offensively and defensively, for the kick. this cannot and should not be changed and is totally fundamental to the game. the idea of adding all this up and pointing to it as some kind of "wasted time" - as a defence of lengthy VAR delays - is dopey imo.
     
  25. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Clearly the problem you have with averages is you don't understand what one is.
     

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