The very very circular VAR Thread

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by SamScouse, Apr 16, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, because these are the rules as agreed upon by the league and those rules include human error and missed calls... and that is the point which we all move forward from. That's the decision of the FA and the prem clubs. If LFC get some help/luck, and win the league over City by 1 point due to a bad call on the last matchday, then I can celebrate... because this is the system everyone agreed on. The powers that be remaining unable to sort their shit out and adopt the superior system doesn't have anything to do with my ability to be happy about LFC finally winning the league again.

    That said, it would be a real shame if that were to happen and it would bother me. But not enough to not be happy overall. Because even if the calls do happen, never have I asked that they remain in the game. That's why there's no contradiction... I've never defended these calls, and I never will. That's a big difference overall IMO.

    Couldn't agree more, that was basically a pen all day against Son and they should have had a chance to score it.

    It should have been awarded, what I "want" has nothing to do with it.

    Still, an even better question is... why was the game that close at that stage? What I really "wanted" was LFC to perform better and finish at least 1 more of their many, many good chances! Danny buries that header in the 1st half, or Mane and Salah play more unselfishly on the break, this is done and dusted and the late pen wouldn't have even mattered.

    But again, either way I'd never defend a bad call and say they should remain in the game when the trade-off is only a couple more minutes average stoppage time on each match.
     
  2. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They are empowered by the arbiters of the game to do so, that's all you need.

    Either way whatever the MLS VAR rules are, they must be different from the FIFA VAR rules to allow that to occur.

    That's why it's not a "simple fix" -- the simple fix is emphasizing that communication needs to happen quickly, and any infraction as a result of a VAR look stops play dead while things are figured out. That's simple.
     
  3. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I agreed with you on the last bit, but as to the first ....

    Heydrich was empowered by arbiters to hire a house in Wannasee. As Tom Petty put it, that ain't nothin' to me!
    ;)
     
  4. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are questioning the "right" of the arbiters of the game to change something, my question remains what is the reason behind your question? An argument for keeping things the same does require a reason, just as much as an argument to change the game also requires a reason. On those terms, in this thread, you don't seem to have excelled, exactly. But perhaps that's just my opinion.

    As your point about... the Nazis o_O... we can take it back to reason. And I'd say the reason to not murder millions of Jews (among other kinds of victims) is... fairly self-evident? It's bad for those victims obviously, bad for Germany and the Nazis in the long run, and in many ways bad for the world and humankind. So, y'know... that's a pretty good reason to deny that authority.
     
  5. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Actually - I now realize that I never did elucidate further on that reason I had for not changing the kick-off. Which I only realized as I found myself writing, searching for some good reason and jokingly scrambling up those quite far-fetched cases... that it really did bother me (and others). And it still does - which is reason enough to not change it when changing it was unnecessary. But I'm too tired to fit those ideas together right now. I'll post it next week.

    As to what you say here about their "right" as arbiters to ignore the issue I find astonishing, which is blatantly cheating by putting the ball outside the area because you know that the ref and linesman will have difficulty seeing that you are doing it.
    All I'll say to those rule makers (who must know that VAR could easily fix that one issue without its ever having to even be called into use (what's the point of doing it if you know for sure it will be called back) ... well, all I'll say to those folks is that that is a great way to teach kids that cheating is ok.
     
  6. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    All that said, It's worth keeping in mind that in 1942 (before Stalingrad) the Nazis had no reason to fear that anything they did would be bad for Germany (the State).

    Absent Stalingrad and the decision to go there without fully routing the retreating soviet armies, and that war doesn't get won. Europe doesn't get invaded in the West in 1944, etc...

    Thankfully it did happen, and not just for the outcome , but also it's possible that the race to build the bomb would have gone on between the US and Germany years before it went on with the Soviets, and the result might well have been Mushroom Clouds over Hamburg and Munich or New York and Boston.....
     
  7. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    You could be debating the perfect size of marshmallow and Zaq would find a way to bring Hitler and the Nazi's into it ...... :rolleyes:
     
    SamScouse and EruditeHobo repped this.
  8. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Or not. I'm OK with that option.
     
    SamScouse and newterp repped this.
  9. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :ROFLMAO:
     
  10. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #510 EruditeHobo, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
    Well I fundamentally disagree with the premise that it's an "unnecessary change"... regardless, that it bothers 1 person (or 10, or 20, or 1 million) is never going to be reason enough that anything should remain the way it is regardless of all context. No one cares that you don't want that dumb rule gone from the game, it's fine to want things. My nephew likes cowboys and wants his own revolver, that doesn't mean we buy him one.

    What is the reason you don't want the dumb rule gone from the game? That's the only thing that matters, and as you said you have offered basically nothing to address that question.

    I have no idea what you're talking about above... what are they "ignoring"? What are you referring to regarding the "ball outside the area"... are we back to the corner kicks outside the designated zone thing again? I can't follow your logic at all when you post in this non sequitur-like fashion.

    Is this about corner kicks? Because I have very little idea what the ******** you're talking about.

    If you're now talking about corner kicks, it is nothing if not yet another example of your inability to internalize the concept of gradation -- there are some things that don't need quite the same amount of scrutiny, because by their very nature they are less impactful. That's probably the 7th time I've said that in here. It's fine to disagree with it (again, as long as you have a reason), but you can't even seem to acknowledge it; you just keep bringing up these same exact counter examples.

    Why are we talking about the placement of the ball on a corner kick, and directly comparing it to a handball in the box? They may be of the same category (cheating), but they aren't equal in any way, and that is because of gradation. That is why the refs and arbiters of the game might not treat them equally. Can you please acknowledge that you understand that?
     
  11. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was spotted... by VAR.

    I want more calls made correctly... that’s what VAR does. This MLS example just shouldn’t happen in this way. They need better rules and better communication, so I’m fine th them taking their time implementing it so it’s maximally effective and minimally annoying. Because obviously seeing this unfold this way, or seeing a red take 3 minutes to make a decisions, that is pretty annoying.

    Not as annoying as teams winning matches based on bad/missed calls, but clearly we disagree about that.
     
  12. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    that's my point !

    VAR's gonna happen in the Prem before long, but please god not before they get their goddamn act together.
     
  13. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    nice job tonight, VAR.

    :rolleyes:
     
    Wingtips1 and CB-West repped this.
  14. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    guardian:

    Having been trialled and subsequently rolled out in assorted football competitions around the globe for well over a year now, VAR has proved an undeniable success. Introduced to eliminate tedious bickering over questionable decisions made (or not made) by football referees, it has got people bickering even more tediously over questionable decisions made (or not made) by VAR instead. Like the match officials it was brought in to assist, VAR has proved far from infallible but tends to get considerably more decisions right than wrong. Its main drawback seems to revolve around the state of less-than-blissful ignorance in which match-going fans are left during the sometimes lengthy breaks in play when those decisions are being made. Breaks when – like The Fiver watching a David Lynch boxset – they are left with little or no clue what the hell is going on.

    Of course this ongoing contempt for the ticket-buying public is nothing new in football and the Germans have finally had enough. Increasingly viewed as paying extras for lavish TV productions to be sold in foreign territories, fans of assorted Bundesliga clubs staged a silent protest for the first 20 minutes of their midweek round of fixtures. At Borussia Dortmund’s Westfalenstadion, for example, a capacity crowd sat in total silence in protest at the German Football Federation’s (DFB) current stand-off with various supporter groups.

    Taking their lead from the Premier League, where capacity crowds habitually congregate in spooky silence for the entire duration of games, the Germans were making their voices unheard over gripes about Monday night fixtures, increasingly early kick-off times and the lack of VAR-related information provided to fans who actually attend games. Assorted fans’ groups claim the DFB have paid little more than lip service and sealed its own lips accordingly. The game, they say, has been “torn even further away from its cultural and social roots and gutted on the altar of profit and greed”.

    Among the high priests regularly found on football’s altar of profit and greed is Uefa, who on Thursday announced that VAR will be rolled out in Big Cup from next season. “We’re confident that introducing VAR in August 2019 will give us enough time to put in place a robust system and to train match officials to ensure an efficient, successful implementation of VAR in [Big Cup], the world’s flagship club competition,” droned Uefa grand camembert Aleksander Ceferin. Whether the robustness of this system will extend to keeping paying punters in the loop remains to be seen, but The Fiver’s not holding its breath.
     
  15. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    Maybe that's because when it comes to egregious things, they have a rather high content ratio....
    I'd try to quantify the perils of a situation by using examples from Shirley Temple but I don't see the same quality of pungency.
     
  16. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    her's one for Hobo (I suppose)...

    Given that in a bundesliga game last year teams were called back onto the pitch from the dressing room at half -time for something or other.
    Isn't it conceivable that had VAR been in place in our game where the game ended in the play after the contentious play, that we could have been celebrating a win only to have then been told as we enter the tunnel that the game isn't in fact over, and that there needs to be a penalty kick....
     
  17. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    if anyone is able translate the above into comprehensible English, please share with the group.
     
  18. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #518 EruditeHobo, Oct 4, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
    I can't find a video replay of this incident that has the whole thing in real time... but either way this is not really a VAR issue. This is a refereeing communication issue, and a familiarity with the rules issue. If the Bundesliga has VAR rules that allow infractions to be given after the ref blows his whistle, then the players and managers need to be made aware of that and not rush off at half-time. On top of that, the communication needs to be better so that everyone is more aware of what is taking place. I can't find anything saying they were in the "dressing room"... sounds like some players, mostly the benches, were in the tunnel.

    But I'd love to see a replay of the incident... I can't find one, so I can't see how long this took or how close to the halftime whistle the infraction occurred. Either way, this is mostly about communication. VAR, again, sounds like it did its job and awarded a penalty that the referee missed.

    But the answer to your question is definitely yes -- even though it will almost never happen, it's possible with these rules to celebrate a win as the whistle goes to only have the ref turn and say "oh yeah this might be a pen... [VAR check] oh it was a pen, we have to take that kick". It should be avoided as much as possible through quick concise communication BEFORE the whistle blows, but it's still possible. But I don't really care. If you concede a really shitty handball in the 95th minute you haven't earned that win... unless the team misses their pen. Once again, I care about getting the calls right, so this isn't a really some Sophie's Choice as far as I'm concerned.
     
  19. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    It's already happened if we win by a point and nothing further untoward occurs for us or City over the next 31 games.
    But to me it ain't a shame at all.

    What if we never win again, and United never win it again??

    What do those eternal 20 titles to 18 mean if we are also aware that they might have been a couple of them different if VAR had existed ....??
     
  20. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    BTW these are all great test cases for when this is brought in, if anything that's encouraging. That in my mind has emerged as the best legitimate reason to not have it in right now, in order to see and assess these VAR calls as they all unfold so that the FA's VAR rules are more able to anticipate and limit the effects of these cases.

    So that's a good thing for the FA & the prem, IMO. So I think perhaps there may have been more foresight that I initially thought when VAR was initially refused for this season.
     
  21. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I think you mean able to translate

    or are you saying that a) different situations involving pungency can't be of relatively varying quality?
    b). that the Nazis exhibited a low content of egregiousness??
     
  22. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I know. You don't care about the refs getting the maximum amount of impactful calls correctly called, and the game being called more fairly overall. You don't care about the right calls when it doesn't affect your club. I do.

    That (and perhaps that alone) has been made very, very clear in this thread.
     
  23. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah... you know what a particularly "pungent" argument is called? A red herring.

    You should stick to making sense and staying on topic, rather than maximizing your pungency.
     
  24. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Yes _ I understand that. But insofar as children watching cheating on television, I doubt there are any kind of adult gradations involved in rationalizing what they see.

    It's just like if they are watching Trump. They learn what they see - and God help us all with that....

    For myself or you, I don't care if Trent gets away with it - I just think it would be a useful utility of VAR in that case.
    Btw/ they do it to get a better run up and a cleaner leg swing - which I would be inclined to think in the case of a corner kick gives it a bit more importance as a factor than you are stating.
     
  25. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    Actually, red herrings are not usually pungent, they tend more to the feeble....

    Of course, there are exceptions to that....
     

Share This Page