The very very circular VAR Thread

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by SamScouse, Apr 16, 2018.

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  1. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    more VAR madness ....

    Mainz’s Bundesliga match against Freiburg could be set for a place in the record books after the home side scored just under seven minutes into half-time – and after the players had been allowed to leave the pitch.
    In the dying seconds of the first half, Mainz had an appeal for handball turned down by the referee Guido Winkmann, with the scores still at 0-0. Winkmann then blew for the break, allowing the players to go in for half-time – only for the VAR official to give the handball and award a penalty.

    Following a delay of almost five minutes, Freiburg’s players had to be summoned from the dressing room after it was ruled that Daniel Brosinski’s cross had been handled by Marc-Oliver Kempf. Six minutes and 44 seconds after the first 45 minutes were up, Pablo de Blasis stroked home the spot kick to put his side a goal up and to allow both teams to head back off the pitch for half-time again.
     
  2. CB-West

    CB-West Member+

    Sep 20, 2013
    NorCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    VAR...shakes head sadly...:rolleyes:
     
  3. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why would they vote against this? I don't understand, I know the kinks aren't ironed out but surely it's better than nothing?
     
  4. CB-West

    CB-West Member+

    Sep 20, 2013
    NorCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    My concern about VAR is that it prolongs the game...and slows it down...(for a high press, Heavy Metal team like LFC - that could be verrrry frustrating)...when it takes five minutes (or even two minutes) for the Head Ref to walk over and watch the incident on TV in order to "get it right"...well, I can see it already..."this VAR break is brought to you by Chevrolet"...

    The game has to flow in order for it to be the beautiful game...otherwise we might as well introduce innings or first downs...

    Besides, the game has survived on "nothing" for more than 100 years...the only reason VAR is even on the table is for the TV crowd (which, I admit, I am part of...)
     
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  5. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Do it like rugby. VAR only used in game if ref asks for it (can be used post game to retrospectively pick up incidents of serious foul play). If VAR is called upon, the VAR ref makes the call. Shouldn't take longer than 3 minutes total (which is about how long the game stops for anyway for a "contentious incident").
     
  6. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    VAR is being talked about like it will solve all problems, but it simply cannot, now or ever. In virtually every game you watch, things happen which are completely debatable even after looking at many slo-mo replays, from many angles, after the game.

    So ...

    1. Use VAR only if the ref asks for it. Nobody else can tell him to re-look at anything, no matter what.
    2. Bring it in in stages - first only for pens, then red cards, finally offsides. This will get everyone used to it and iron out bugs
    3. Make sure the crowd knows what's happening when VAR being used
    4. Wait to use it for offsides until each player's boots have embedded chips so the officials get a beep (kinda like the goal tech now) if their feet are offside (not their arm, or hair, or whatever)
     
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  7. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It will prolong the games, but so do injury timeouts/stoppages. It's necessary to have VAR, it's time to get these calls correct.

    And that's from someone that has seen LFC benefit from more than a couple "close" calls in the CL knockout rounds so far. Granted, they've also been screwed in the league a few times... but getting the call correct has to be the priority.

    Hopefully this just means they will further streamline it in order to maintain the pace of the sport.
     
  8. CB-West

    CB-West Member+

    Sep 20, 2013
    NorCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I am all for getting the call correct, and I do get frustrated when it is clear that the wrong call was made...but I will continue to argue on the side that a lot of calls are made on the ref's judgement, "in the heat of the moment" and stopping the game to consult a VAR kills the flow of the game...

    BTW - yes, the same way injury stoppages kill the flow...so I'd argue also that if a player rolls around on the ground looking for a stoppage, that he is escorted off the field for a minimum of the time of the stoppage - rather than welcomed back as soon as the ball is back in play...

    If I'm honest, I'm sure VAR is on its way in...so I guess I just hope that it is introduced with a minimum of stoppages and is somehow streamlined...and I agree with Sam - it will never solve all of the problems
     
  9. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are already stoppages for goals scored & penalty kicks. These are the cases in which VAR should be used.

    It doesn't need to solve 100% of the problem, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good... VAR needs to give certainty and credibility to refs on offsides that result in goals, and on penalties. That's really it. They want to streamline it, that's fine, but every bad call that costs a deserving team, every time the title goes close and one team got a significant number of calls "in their favor", if that's what pushes them over the top (or saves a club from relegation) that's an embarrassment. The tech is there, it's time to get this stuff right. Who knows how many goals would have been disallowed or incorrectly allowed in the years since goal line tech was implemented? But they got that right, and it's saved certain results in the interest of an impartial, accurate view of what really happened when no human could possibly see.

    Take another year or so to streamline it... but these calls need to be called correctly. Every time Lovren touches someone in the back and they dive to get a pen, it will mean that this was a missed opportunity to get THAT call correct with a brief replay which hardly alters the flow of the game at all (an extra 15-20 or even 30 seconds on top of what is already a 90 second stoppage for a contentious penalty).
     
    delaynomo repped this.
  10. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Salah did not get a penalty when he went down in the last game. The contact was about the same as the Lovren incident, both strikers going away from goal. Need some consistency and VAR will help.

    (in my view, neither were penatlies)
     
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  11. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR is all about how its applied. Right now there isn't really talk about reviewing offside calls, but to me, that seems where it is most easily applied and wrong calls have the most impact.

    I'd do it as follows:

    1) Refs only start blowing up obviously offsides. Anything borderline gets played. If a goal is scored, any potential offside within the previous 10 or 15 seconds is reviewed. If no goal scored, no harm/no foul keep playing.
    2) Coaches can request a review of a penalty. 1 incorrect appeal per half. Flag on the field within 10 secs of incident. TV ref can review if there is an immediate stoppage of play.
     
  12. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I disagree, the game has enough rules now thanks. and what you've described is too convoluted for me.

    the problem with the whole VAR thing is that - like many technology issues - people now tend to think you should do something simply because you can.
     
  13. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    of course you do.
     
  14. hubbabubba

    hubbabubba Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I will agree with this, and further say that if VAR is implemented it basically will be the end of association football as we know it. Yes this is extreme, but here'e my reasoning.

    In a sport where most games are decided by one goal, it is wrong to take the decision-making prerogative away from the referee(s) on the field. If consistently applied, I fear that games will be almost completely predictable. Already we see the negative impact of money on the game. Certain teams (Liverpool, clearly are one of these to some extent) can load up on talent, and naturally have an advantage during the normal play of the game.

    Right now, inferior teams always have a chance because most games are decided by one goal, and disruptive tactics allow a leveling effect on the game. Take that away from the underdog and I'm afraid we may change the game into a boring procession to 90 minutes. Where we see games that are mostly decided by sterile technical skills of one team, and don't offer the possibility of negation of one team's dominant skill.

    Instant replay works in basketball because they score so often. It works less well in American Football, but does serve a purpose given the balance of scoring vs. defense. But in both of these other cases games are not often decided by a single score...

    Heck, Liverpool would likely benefit overall from VAR, but I just don't think it fits this sport, given the points I've raised above.
     
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  15. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So what you are saying is the refs should actively work to give weaker teams calls in order to level the playing field?
     
  16. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    if the game keeps going with VAR-think, ... why not eliminate refs and linos? just install a big screen and a big PA system so the remote adjudicators can sound a whistle, announce yellow/red cards, etc.

    I'll repeat - technophobes think any new application of tech should be done simply because it can be done, and repeatedly gloss over the negative implications.
     
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  17. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    LOL Old man who is on internet daily uses the internet to complain about technology taking over our lives ;)
     
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  18. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    true. but I worked in IT for >25 years so I understand the techie mindset very well.

    and just coz I like some of it doesn't mean I like all of it .... :)
     
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  19. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Neither of these two points make any logical sense to me.
     
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  20. Wingtips1

    Wingtips1 Member+

    May 3, 2004
    02116
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    surely you mean techno-philes, right?
     
  21. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    erm ... OK.

    LOL. :)
     
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  22. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    I'm fine with the penalty call, although I agree with Christian Vieri that he couldn't see it properly so don't call it then, but the sendign off of Buffon was totally unnecessary....
     
  23. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    He didn't manhandle him, he had players blockinghis way. He might have done, but then yes, I'd say send him off, but he didn';t....
    (maybe I'm wrong)
     
  24. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    It's all a bit of a cr@pshoot, really IMO. Rafa is a brilliant manager and he failed at Madrid, for example. But I bet in 9 out of ten cases Rafa does far better with a mid table side than zidane does.... but the cookie crumbles differently every time...
     
  25. zaqualung

    zaqualung Member+

    Jun 17, 2015
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I think the second point is structurally sound. (If the ability to grind away minutes is overruled iy will take away some of the underdog's assets....


    First up I'd have to say that it should only be for clear scoring/penalty opportunities... Nothing else.
    Also - I'm a little intrigued as to who gets to call it. Does a coach just have toshout at the ref and the ref will check with VAR.
    There is a case to be mase for a penalty call on EVERY corner folks ....
    this could all get real sick, real quick....
     

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