This question is inspired by the discussion on the "A's for everyone" thread. I'd like this to be wide open and inclusive as far as what "value" of AP courses means. I'll start with my two thoughts and see whwre it goes from there. I have to miss the USA-Cuba match in the Gold Cup on July 7. Why? Because Honors College faculty at Washington State University are gathering that day to discuss adding a layer (or substituting classes) between required introductory classes and second or third year classes. At issue is the ever increasing number of students who arrive at the university having passed a number of AP courses - indeed, sometimes all general requirements - but who arrive at the next level of classes without appropriate training. Students can pass the test, but don't really have commesurate knowledge/skills with someone who took the intro class. The good news is that they are good students and catch up after a few weeks, but taking 3-5 weeks out of a 15 week semester to catch some students up is a waste of 20-33% of the term. This is especially problematic in math and the sciences, but has also been reported in social science courses. The other problem is the inequality of AP offerings (number of classes only) from one school to the next. Students coming in from rural Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Alaska (our main feeder states) have often found one or no AP offerings at their schools. Compare this to metro Seattle and you have a problem (though disparities exist there, too). Reading this over, I see that my second issue is not really on my own topic. Let's call it a free flowing discussion of AP work and I'm right on.
At Michigan, our department (history) wouldn't accept any AP credits toward a history major, which basically made them wasted credits. Students were pissed off too, but the decision came (I was on the curriculum committee at the time) after seeing the majority of people that had gotten 5's knew a lot of facts about American history (especially about Presidents) but absolutely no idea of how they fit into larger patterns of historical development. At my current institution (Bard), I'm not sure that we accept any AP credits toward graduation. I know we don't toward a history major. At least in social science, my experience is that they don't provide the equivalent of university level work, but that they may look good on applications, especially when admissions committees look at the strength of classes taken.
Next year I will take three AP classes: Statistics, US History, and English III. I could have taken Physics as a fourth, but opted for honors instead, considering the workload. I'm not taking them for the credits, because if I get into my first choice school, I know for a fact that they won't count for anything. I'm simply taking it for the challenge of doing college-level work. I should note that I go to a fairly affluent school that offers plenty of AP classes. These are the ones I can think of: -English III and IV -World History, US History -Government -Economics -Statistics -Calculus -Physics -Anatomy & Physiology -Environmental Science -Computer Science -Art History -Spanish III, IV, and V -Latin III and IV -French III and IV -German III and IV
I took 3 APs last year and didn't take any of the exams. My reasoning for not taking 2 (Chem and Calc) is that I would have bombed them, but I skipped the AP Lit (which I probably would have done well on) because I didn't think it was a good idea to skip English 101. What does all of this mean? Not much, but I wanted to say it anyway. Oh, and AP classes and senioritis don't mix. Luckily enough I was still able to get (barely) okay grades in my 2 of my 3 APs and good grades in the other one.
It really depends- certainly you can't say that an AP provides the same challenge of a college course-that is to say the level of analysis demanded is simply not the same. however, in terms of learning the facts they can be wuite useful. This distiction matters at least in the subjects I am most comfortable discussing this issue- that is to say History, though I could see how the arguments I make below might not old upfor say a math or science class. It all depends on what level of grade that the college will offer credit for and what the credit allows you to do. I would certainly agree that anything less than a 5 does not display adequate mastery of the material such that you should be able to skip the class. (Of couse I am really glad my school let my 4 in AP Calc stand so that I never had to take a collegiate math class-well econ stats and accounting but you get the idea.) However in subjects where there is factual memorization that is a base prereq and a need to learn how to analyze, there can be value in allowing AP students who have learned the material fully (gotten 5s) to move on to take alternate courses or more specialized ones where they can learn more general info as well as the analytical skills they need. A hypothetical example of this would be to allow someone with a 5 on Modern European to take a survey of Medieval History without first taking European history 101-102. It is important to realize though that what the College board claims is worthy of credit is a joke.
I didn't take the AP Chemistry exam when I was in high school. I took Chem 101 during my first semester of college and got an easy A.
When I was advising students I thought that the best thing AP credit did for them was provide them the opportunity to take a semester or two or three with less than a full load. I always recommended that be the first semester, to let them settle into college life a little. I also recommended they at least consider ignoring the fact that they'd lose the AP credit if they took the course their AP scores "replaced" if they were really interested in the topic. The latter notion was not popular with parents, since the AP exams cost money. But they were better off with the department's course.
The level of analytical skills gained from AP courses depends heavily on how the class is taught. The teacher, to be effective, must know how to teach a college-level course. If you take a teacher who's never taught anything but freshman US history and ask her to teach AP, her students will not benefit greatly. On the other hand, if the teacher knows what he/she is doing, it certainly is possible to learn on the college level. My high school AP teacher is of the latter category, and he receives many emails telling him that his students are better prepared for history 102 than those who took the entry level course in their freshman year of college.
It's a bit different for the math and science-related AP exams. I took AP Calc (got a 5) and AP Physics (4 on mechanics, 5 on electricity & magnetism) in HS and got credit for the appropriate courses at the University of Texas. As a result, my first calculus class at UT was the second-semester calculus course and I didn't feel ill-prepared for any of the coursework in that class. Likewise, I didn't feel ill-prepared for the engineering classes that required knowledge of the physics classes that I had placed out of. But as you said, it's a bit different for humanities-related subjects. In the end, the best thing for colleges is not to give or deny credit for AP scores across-the-board, but do so on a subject-by-subject basis.
I've always considered AP courses a waste of time, but that's because I was lucky. When I was in high school, you could take classes from the local community college (two per semester) and the state covered the tuition. Now, my father worked for said college, so I got free tuition anyway. I ended up taking four community college courses each semester during the school day (alternating schedules) and four classes at high school. So, instead of putting all that work into an AP class with the possibility of bombing a test and getting no credit, I took the courses (Eng Lit and Comp, Logic, Public Speaking, World History, Calc A/B and something else...) at college and was guaranteed credit. By the time I got to college, I had a full year of school under my belt. RS
i took about four APs my senior year. the only reason was that the AP tests happened about a month before graduation, and our teachers gave us the choice of taking the AP test and screwing off for a month or taking a final a week before graduation. so everyone took the AP tests. that last month of high school was awesome. my AP Econ class had a two week long monopoly tournament. came down to me and the class valedictorian. and in my greatest acedemic/boardgaming moment i crushed him. i did okay on the AP tests, but i knew the college i was going to was a real hard ass about giving credit for them (only 5s were given credit, and depending on your major they wouldn't allow them) so i didn't kill myself studying for them. overall they aren't a big deal. but i did know this one kid who went to a state school and he got a bunch of his freshman prereqs out of the way cause of AP credit. it really depends on what college you go to.
In my discipline, Spanish, they follow pretty much the same as what's been reported. Grammar can be helpful IF taught properly. The main problem revolves around Heritage Learners: they intuit the grammar, don't have to study, get 4s and 5s and are happy... Until they get to an upper division course or the bridge course (intro to literature and/or a writing course) and they get shredded. To pieces. F'ugly. My girlfriend got a 5 and to this day laments the fact that she never really learned the grammar. The problem lies in the fact that the test doesn't check to see if the students have made the transition from Spanish as an oral language to Spanish as a written language. Also, Spanish teachers are so overworked that they simply can't prepare their students sufficiently. For the anglophone students, the problem lies in the fact that by doing well and skipping out of the grammar courses, they miss out on the cultural and literature readings that accompany an intermediate course. These in their totality function as an entirely separate course, kind of like an introduction to an introduction to Latin Civilization(s). Lost, on AP students. Literature: DAMN I hate that test. AP instructors are happy to finally teach content, but after just 4 years, they get burnt out on teaching the same 5 authors (Borges, Marquez and a few others that I can't recall). And the test doesn't really change. So the beauty of teaching college-level material and the resultant creativity that stimulates both teachers and students, gets lost. Plus, by encouraging teachers to teach just 5 authors, their generational context is thoroughly lost. How can you read Marquez w/o having read a sufficient amount of 19th century nation foundation novels in the romantic and realist/naturalist schools? What about Colombian poetry in the context of modernismo. What about the resultant vanguard poetry, which revolutionized the Spanish language almost to the same degree that the modernists had. All these play a seminal role in most of the novelists that the AP exam tests. In short, the AP tests leave much to be desired. But it is absolutely valuable to take AP classes b/c students are amongst the top students
Exactly. If there's any advantage, it's that you're learning at the highest level you possibly can, which takes work, but pays off.
As someone who tested out of his Spanish requirement (but is very much a gringo), I have to say that the above complaint might be well served for a college major program, not for a test after 4 years of high school Spanish. Its just an AP test. And it lets you avoid grammar, which you should know reasonably well if you're taking AP Spanish in the first place. The REAL advantage of AP classes is the ability not to take the 300 person lectures in the history/english/chem 101 classes and instead moving to the intermediate stuff immediately. I liked my AP/college course credits because they let me graduate early, only skipping the intro classes.
Ah yes, I remember my guidance counselor in undergrad telling me 4 courses per quarter was a bad idea from the get go. Yeah...........I don't agree with that. At all. Entirely depends on the teachers involved.
The two AP classes I took in High School were the only ones that really prepared me for college. So they were worth the effort even though the credits didn't count towards a major.
Private school, so most of my 12th grade courses prepared me for the AP exam. I wound up taking two: English language and Music History/Literature. Pair of 5s. In both cases I was able to place out of courses that would have bored me silly, such as 1st and 2nd semester Music History (I was a B.M. candidate at the time). All in all a good experience, and it was worth 9 credits.
Yep, guys like you and those kids that wanted to double in comp sci and pre med while tossing in a scuba course were what made me leave that job. Well that and the endless stream of kids who couldn't understand why (why? WHY?) the fact that they were failing a course was not a good and sufficient reason for them to be allowed to drop after the drop period was officially over. Of course it depends. That's exactly what I told them. For example, the math department ran the numbers on kids that took their intro calc course vs kids that placed out of it via AP and the kids that took it did significantly better in the course at the next level, despite the fact that the "placed out" group contained more high-acheivers from HS. For example again, some departments allowed AP credit to replace the gateway course (prereq for majors) and that's fine if you're not majoring and just want to take one or two upper level courses, but it's something you need to ask specifically about if you think you want to major in that dept. Basically, it's just a matter of making sure they know more about what their options are, since most of just assumed they had no choice BUT to take the AP credit. But you never say "Dude, your AP credit sucks. Take the real course instead."
Well, I was pretty unobtrusive about it. I developed a plan and stuck to it. And - it worked for me. Never had to drop a class, really, except for my tendency to take five and drop the one I liked least. Plus, I had no interest in scuba.
I can see how it was benefitial in your specific case. The main reason is that you're a really smart guy, well above the rest of the pack; hence, the normal advice doesn't serve you as well. But that's not to say that you could have and/or would have benefitted from taking Spanish at the U level. I remember that you studied History (?), but if I'm wrong, your rhetorical and linguistic skills indicate you did humanities or maybe poli sci-esque social science. And I assume you went to a top-tier undergrad institute, in which case... You probably had to do 3+ semesters of a foreign language, which taught at a respectable school and/or by a competent department, the cultural component of intermediate Spanish would have served as an introduction to an introduction to Latin Civilizations. You would have had the opportunity to practice your major's skills and information in a foreign language, thus fortifying your skills in English. Plus, by developing your skills in the target language, you thereby open up the bibliography possible to consult when researching papers in your major's classes. God knows when 300 students all embark on a research paper that the best books are impossible to get out of the library. So being able to consult material in Spanish or French, for instance, allows you to get needed bibliography. Perhaps of equal importance, profs notice bibliography (some turn directly to biblio page b4 reading the intro paragraph) and I guarantee that that would help set you apart from the pack. The bottom line is that an AP course just isn't the same as a college course, so buyer should keep that in mind and plan accordingly. The most important thing is to be prepared for college and upper division.
I took some AP and a lot of IB (it's like AP's crazy cousin). My sophomore year I took Euro Hist. Jr yr I took US Hist and Language and Composition. I got 3s in all of them. Euro Hist was the best class I've ever taken. It made it easier to link all of the other historical stuff together for US and then Latin America (which will never make complete sense b/c I think they're all insane). The whole point of things like AP and especially IB is to teach kids how to manage their work so that everything gets done. It's just really good preparation not any sort of replacement.
Well an AP test is good if you think you can get a 5 on it. My school won't accept anything less, not even a 4, but if you get a 5 you can get a credit for it.
International Baccalaureate IIRC, it's a scholastic program that's based on a variety of school systems around the world. IB courses taken at HS level earn credit in many US colleges and universities. My (largely inexperienced) impression is that IB courses are generally more highly regarded than AP courses.