The more I think about it I don't understand what Buckingham is doing in the list at #36 (has three 'minor' trophies in his career, one of their criteria, but can be compensated by the others). As primary achievement they state he won the league with Ajax in 1960. He had for about four decades not a big profile at all (was it any bigger as Roy Hodgson?), but then subsequent English writers with an agenda have talked him up (saying he is "forgotten"). In the 'Brilliant Orange' book he himself makes some very nuancing remarks about the nature of his work ("they didn't get it from me"). It doesn't make sense, there is not a 'network' around him either. Had he stayed on as coach then Ajax was likely relegated with an attendance of 10000 and who knows how subsequent history would be; all the major organizational strides FCB made came later. The idea he "discovered" various Spanish and Dutch youngsters is also nonsense, to say it harsh. I also think Bielsa has more style than substance, with all respect. He is good, but has not too many strong finishes to show for it. Bianchi instead of him would be fair. Also not too sure about Jean-Claude Suaudeau instead of Guy Roux indeed (similar 'small club' profile). Will try to complete it as good as I can.
Nantes is a greater club than Auxerre, first point. When I said "Guy Roux must be happy" earlier in the thread (if ever you refered to it but anyway let's continue), it is because we all know here, that if he doesn't make these lists, it's mainly because of his playing-style : individual marking + counter-attacks, what was judged archaic just as the man was caricaturized as a country-man, not without reasons, because he was. That was his method and the mediatic caracter that he presented hismelf : ''the basics" in life like in football, but of course that did not mean that he was not intelligent, that is as a coach or as a person. What he did with small town Auxerre is obviously fantastic and yeah, with some chauvinism (something that Roux praises as the French people have not enough of it in football, or had not enough, until the hype '98-2000 and most of all more recently, during these very few last years. I think that the French people are bigger consumers of football nowadays) France Foot could have find a place for him in their ranking... but they did not. With those criterias... The common point between Nantes and Auxerre was their excellence in the formation of youngs, in the 80s-90s (+ before for Nantes and + in the very early 2000s for Auxerre). But it's two different schools : Nantes was more "ambitious" in terms of playing-style and like a "laboratory". That's why Suaudeau made the cut and not Roux. Then, Auxerre could play some good football too in some occasions but it was less elaborated than Nantes. Nantes '95 (a bit less technical than the precedent generations but as good at a collective level if not stronger, 1 loss only, they could get results away) and Auxerre '96, were two excellent teams. Then ofc, Nantes was not always successful but when they were it was in beautiful fashion generally. At the image of Ajax, their best players were regularly "stolen" too, especially since the mid-80s... and the era with Ivic as a coach was different. Suaudeau was his predecessor and successor winning the title each time (in '83 he was considered like a temporary solution as headcoach and in spite of the title won was replaced and sent back to the formation of the youngs in '88... then he comes back and re-bingo!). In the dynasty of the great coaches of FC Nantes he's like the son of Arribas who is at the origins of "Le Jeu à la Nantaise" (which means a collective game in short, that's it, with players from the house too) and maybe not the father but still the one who "gave the baton" to Denoueix (Vincent did well too but he was not from the house). Now it's all over since the new century (after 2001 and the last title). Back to Roux, with these criterias or not he has always a bit paid his relationship with the medias as a coach (in front of the cameras or mics at least) : when interviewed he always said that his goal was to not be relegated, even when his team was strong enough. "C'est de bonne guerre" (it's fair game) and it is quite funny in the end. But yeah there are those criterias and especially the one wich is about innovation in the game... personnaly I liked Auxerre as well (2nd behind Nantes), they had their identity too. Different (though not totally different, it would be exaggerated) but good too. Roux exaggerated himself sometimes (many times) in his speeches, was in the auto-caricature... but on the pitch it is true that his way of playing did not vary much often and did not evolve much with time... ... Nantes and Auxerre were often presented like antithetic... two opposite schools... That's the reason why. Nantes is of course a bigger city. It's located by the Atlantic sea etc. Auxerre it is the deep country. Both had the youngsters formation as their base though (as few transferts as possible, just the necessary to strenghten the team with highly targeted profiles as there was no room for error as for the recruitment, given the financial ressources of the clubs wich had their limits). FCN was founded in '43. AJA in 1905, started to climb up in the hierarchy of the leagues since after the war and especially since the early 60s with Roux. This incredible ascension from the amateur leagues to the French Cup final in '79 (against Nantes) then the Division 1 for so many years then the victories in the French Cup, the double '96, without forgetting of course the so remarkable runs in European football... this could have been saluted indeed. Suaudeau #49 (associated to Arribas, and also Denoueix) and Roux #50... instead of one coach that nobody ever heard of... that would have been better. Believe me, the reason I tried to explain above is the reason why, I think it's clear for plenty of readers from here. I think it's funny at first glance but also quite ridiculous at the same time and somehow disrespectful finally. I don't know if Roux reacted to this so far, if he was asked to do so (he's on L'Equipe TV from time to time). I can imagine him having some distance concerning such things and being humorous but also saying what he truely think of the authors of this article at the same time.
31 DIEGO SIMEONE (ARGENTINA, SINCE 2006) COURSE: RACING CLUB OF AVELLANEDA, ESTUDIANTES OF THE PLATA, RIVER PLATE, SAN LORENZO, CATANIA, ATLETICO MADRID. HIS ARMS: CHAMPION OF SPAIN 2014 WITH ATLETICO, THREE POINTS AT THE FRONT WITH THE BARÇA AND REAL MADRID. HEAD OF BAND AND EXCEPTIONAL COMPETITOR, HEIR OF THE HARD BANGS OF ARGENTINE FOOT (ZUBELDIA, SPINETTO, BILARDO ...) HAVING A GAME OF "HUEVOS Y CORAZON" (OF "BALSS AND HEART"), BUT IMPREGNATED ALSO WITH THE SERIE A WHERE HE PLAYED EIGHT YEARS, IT MOVED THE ATLETICO TO A STRONG PLACE. HIS FAVORITE RECIPE: COMPACT BLOCK, AGGRESSIVITY, VERTICALITY, QUICK ATTACKS AND KICKS FROM THE BACK. 32 ARSÈNE WENGER (FRANCE, 1984-2018) COURSE: NANCY, MONACO, NAGOYA, ARSENAL. HIS ARMS: THE DOUBLÉ CHAMPIONNAT-FA CUP WITH THE GUNNERS IN 1998. THE MAN WHO GIVEN HIS LETTERS OF NOBILITY TO THE GUNNERS AND PROVIDED A NEW IMPULSE TO ENGLISH FOOTBALL BY ITS METHODS, IN PARTICULAR DIETETICS. DEFENDER OF AN OFFENSIVE AND LICKED GAME, THE "PROFESSOR" LACKS A CONTINENTAL PALMARES, DISPUTED THE FINALS OF THE THREE CUPS OF EUROPE WITHOUT ONE WIN. 33 VICENTE DEL BOSQUE (SPAIN, 1987-2016) COURSE: CASTILLA, REAL MADRID, BESIKTAS SPAIN. HIS ARMS: THE TWO WINS IN C1 WITH THE REAL MADRID (2000 AND 2002). BEFORE HIS DESTINATION TO THE WORLD WITH THE ROJA, HIS IMAGE REMAINS FIRST ASSOCIATED WITH THE REAL OF THE GALACTICS (FIGO, RAUL, ROBERTO CARLOS, ZIDANE, THEN RONALDO). AND IN HIS FAMILY FATHER MANAGEMENT, WHO PASSED THE CLOAKROOM, CREATED A SPIRIT OF WINNERS AND OFFERS THE ESSENTIAL COLLECTIVE BALANCE. 34 JOCK STEIN (SCOTLAND, 1960-1985) COURSE: DUNFERMLINE, HIBERNIAN, SCOTLAND, CELTIC GLASGOW, LEEDS UNITED, SCOTLAND. ITS ARMS: THE C1 OF CELTIC GLASGOW IN 1967. A COAL MINER BECOMES A LEGEND FOR MUSCLE MANAGEMENT. MENTOR OF ALL SCOTTISH COACHES ORIGINATING IN GLASGOW, FROM FERGUSON TO MOYES THROUGH DALGLISH, AND FIRST IN THE UK TO LEAD HIS TEAM (THE CELTIC) TO A C1 VICTORY, HE IS THE REAL INVENTOR OF THE "HAIRDRYER" THAT'S DEAR TO FERGIE. 35 TELE SANTANA (BRAZIL, 1969-1996) COURSE: FLUMINENSE, ATLETICO MINEIRO, GREMIO PORTO ALEGRE, PALMEIRAS, BRAZIL, AL-AHLY, BRAZIL, FLAMENGO, SAO PAULO FC. HIS ARMS: THE DOUBLE COPA LIBERTADORES-CUP INTERCONTINENTAL TWO YEARS FOLLOWING WITH SAO PAULO FC (1992 AND 1993). HIS NAME WRAPS FIRST THE FLAMBIYANT SELEÇAO OF 1982 AND 1986. BUT HE ALSO GIVES TO BRAZIL WITH SAO PAULO ONE OF ITS MOST BEAUTIFUL CLUB TEAMS. FOLLOWING THE CRUYFF DREAM TEAM, THEN THE MILAN AC OF CAPELLO IN INTERCONTINENTAL CUP, IT REMEMBERED THAT THE BARÇA DID NOT HAVE THE MONOPOLY OF THE BEAUTIFUL GAME AND THE MILAN THAT OF WINNING. 36 VIC BUCKINGHAM (ENGLAND, 1950-1980) COURSES: PEGASUS, BRADFORD PARK AVENUE, WESTBROM, AJAX AMSTERDAM, SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY, AJAX AMSTERDAM, FULHAM, ETHNIKOS, FC BARCELONA, FC SEVILLE, OLYMPIAKOS, RODOS. HIS ARMS: WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OF THE NETHERLANDS WITH AJAX IN 1960. THE ENGLISH TECHNICIAN SUCCEEDED BY MICHELS AT AJAX, BUT ALSO IN BARÇA. IT IS HE WHO, IN DEVELOPING HIS PHILOSOPHY OF A GAME TURNED TO ATTACK AND BETTER FOCUS ON PHYSICS, POSED THE BASICS OF TOTAL FOOTBALL. HE ALSO WHO POLISHED THE TRAINING SYSTEM AT AJAX AND LAUNCHED JOHAN CRUYFF. (note: this is imho really too rosy - it was his successor who increased the trainings to twice a day, that's undisputable, and started to work almost exclusively with the ball in trainings) 37 RAFAEL BENITEZ (SPAIN, SINCE 1993) COURSES: CASTILLA, REAL VALLADOLID, OSASUNA, EXTREMADURA, TENERIFE, VALENCIA CF, LIVERPOOL, INTER, CHELSEA, NAPLES, REAL MADRID, NEWCASTLE. ITS WEAPONS: THE VICTORY IN C1 2005 AGAINST MILAN AC (3-3, pens 3 - 2). A HUGE BOSS AND A TOUCHFUL INSPIRED TACTICIAN. AND HIS CREDO, CLOSER TO CAPELLO THAN SACCHI, TWO SOURCES OF INSPIRATION THAT HE REPRESENTS: ORGANIZATION, DEFENSIVE RIGOR, AGGRESSION, INTENSITY AND COLLECTIVE CONTROL. BUT IF HE HAD NOT RECOVERED A C1 FINAL THAT HE LOST 3-0 AT HALF-TIME, HE WOULD NOT BE HERE. 38 HENNES WEISWEILER (GERMANY, 1955-1983) COURSE: FC COLOGNE, VIKTORIA COLOGNE, M'GLADBACH, FC BARCELONA, NEW YORK COSMOS, GRASSHOPPER ZURICH. ITS ARMS: THE UEFA BUNDESLIGA-CUP DOUBLÉ IN 1975 WITH MÖNCHENGLADBACH. TO CHALLENGE BAYERN IN THE 1970S AND WIN THREE TITLES, EMERGED AN EXCEPTIONAL GENERATION (BONHOF, NETZER, HEYNCKES, VOGTS) AND PROPOSED A DIFFERENT GAME, BOTH COLLECTIVE, FAST ON THE BREAK AND OFFENSIVE, IT WOULD BE ONE BIGGEST COACHES OF THE PERIOD. "HIS GREAT TALENT", AFFIRMED HEYNCKES, "IS TO DEMAND ALL FROM US WITHOUT BREAKING OUR PERSONALITIES. " (note: didn't he actually do this with various 'stars' as Overath and such? The story is he made him retire.) 39 BOBBY ROBSON (ENGLAND, 1968-2004) COURSE: FULHAM, IPSWICH, ENGLAND, PSV EINDHOVEN, PORTUGAL SPORTING, FC PORTO, FC BARCELONA, PSV EINDHOVEN, NEWCASTLE. ITS WEAPONS: THE UEFA CUP WITH IPSWICH IN 1981. AS OFTEN WITH ENGLISH COACHES, WE WILL INCLUDE HIS ENTHUSIASM, ITS ABILITY TO DEVELOP YOUNG TALENTS (BUTCHER, MILLS, TALBOT, WARK, BRAZIL) AND ITS HUMAN VALUES. BUT ESPECIALLY THE EXTRAORDINARY ADVENTURE OF THE TRACTOR BOYS OF IPSWICH, WHICH HE MAKES A WINNER OF THE FA CUP (1978) AND THE UEFA CUP (1981). 40 DETTMAR CRAMER (GERMANY, 1971-1997) COURSE: EGYPT, UNITED STATES, HERTHA, BAYERN, EINTRACHT FRANKFURT, AL-ITTIHAD, ARIS SALONIC, LEVERKUSEN, MALAYSIA, SOUTH KOREA HOPES, THAILAND. ITS ARMS: THE DOUBLE IN C1 WITH BAYERN IN 1975 AND 1976. CONSIDERED A FATHER OF FOOTBALL ... JAPANESE, HELMUT SCHÖN'S FORMER ASSISTANT WITH MANNSCHAFT AT WORLD CUP 66 WAS AN EDUCATOR ABOVE ALL ELSE WHO HAD HIS TIME OF GLORY BY WINNING TWO C1 WITH THE BAYERN. MADE SURE A YOUNG BECKENBAUER (18 YEARS) WAS NOT EXCLUDED FROM THE SQUAD FOR PROCESSING OUTSIDE MARRIAGE. 41 MIRCEA LUCESCU (ROMANIA, SINCE 1982) COURSE: CORVINUL HUNEDOARA, ROMANIA, DINAMO BUCHAREST, PISA, BRESCIA, REGGIANA, RAPID BUCHAREST, INTER MILAN, GALATASARAY, BESIKTAS, CHAKHTIOR DONETSK, ZENITH SAINT PETERSBURG AND TURKEY. ITS WEAPONS: THE UEFA CUP RECEIVED IN 2009 WITH SHAKTAR DONETSK. HIS MANUFACTURING BRAND: TO WORK WITH YOUNG PLAYERS, TO EDIT THEM, TO TRANSMIT THEM GOOD HABITS, BUT ALSO TO SUCCESS TO PROVIDE VERY QUICKLY TO HIS TEAM A REAL IDENTITY OF GAME. "I LOVE A RESOLUTELY TECHNICAL FOOTBALL, OFFENSIVE, SPECTACULAR, INTELLIGENT. AND, WHEREVER I HAVE PASSED, MY TEAMS HAVE ALWAYS PLAYED WELL. NO ONE CAN CONTEST THIS. "
42 TOMISLAV IVIC (YUGOSLAVIA, THEN CROATIA, 1967-2004) ROUTES: RNK SPLIT, SIBENIK, YUGOSLAVIA, HAJDUK SPLIT, AJAX AMSTERDAM, HAJDUK SPLIT, ANDERLECHT, GALATASARAY, AVELLINO, PANATHINAIKOS, HAJDUK SPLIT, PORTO FC, DINAMO ZAGREB, PARIS-SG, ATLETICO MADRID, MARSEILLE, BENFICA, FC PORTO, CROATIA , FENERBAHÇE, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, AL-WASL, HAJDUK SPLIT, PERSÉPOLIS, IRAN, STANDARD OF LIÈGE, MARSEILLE, AL-ITTIHAD. ITS ARMS: IN 1987-88, THE QUADRUPLE SUPERCOUPE OF EUROPE, INTERCONTINENTAL CUP, CHAMPIONSHIP, CUP WITH FC PORTO. THIS GREAT GLOBETROTTER WORKED IN CLUBS OF THIRTEEN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES (CHAMPION IN FIVE), PARTICULARLY IN FRANCE WHERE HE IS THE ONLY WITH LUCIEN LEDUC TO HAVE TRAINED PSG AND OM. IT LINKED EFFICIENCY TO SIMPLICITY AND WAS DESCRIBED AS A TACTICAL BRAIN, ESPECIALLY ON THE DEFENSIVE LEVEL. 43 STEFAN KOVACS (ROMANIA, 1952-1987) COURSE: UNIVERSITATEA CLUJ, ROMANIA, STEAUA BUCHAREST, AJAX AMSTERDAM, FRANCE, ROMANIA, PANATHINAÏKOS, MONACO. ITS ARMS: DOUBLE WINNER OF THE C1 WITH AJAX IN 1972 AND 1973. SUCCEEDING RINUS MICHELS WAS AN IMPOSSIBLE JOB, EXCEPT IF ONE STOOD CONTRARY, QUESTIONS OF CHARACTER AND MANAGEMENT. GERRIE MUHREN, MIDFIELDER OF AJAX, SAID: "KOVACS WAS TOO GENTIL. BUT, IN ITS FIRST YEAR, WE PLAYED EVEN BETTER BECAUSE WE WERE GOOD PLAYERS GIVEN FREEDOM" BEAT INTER THEN THE JUVE IN FINALS CHANGES A PALMARES. 44 LUIS ARAGONES (SPAIN, 1974-2009) COURSE: ATLETICO MADRID, BETIS SEVILLE, ATLETICO MADRID, FC BARCELONA, ESPANYOL BARCELONA, ATLETICO MADRID, FC SEVILLE, VALENCIA CF, BETIS SEVILLE, REAL OVIEDO, MALLORCA, ATLETICO MADRID, MALLORCA, SPAIN, FENERBAHÇE. HIS ARMS: THE RETURNING THE LIGA IN 1977 AS THE HEAD OF ATLETICO MADRID. FOREVER THE LEGENDARY COACH OF THE ATLETICO MADRID, WHERE HE LIVES AT FOUR REPRISES AND WITH WHICH HE FITTED HIS PALMARES. "ZAPATONES" IS ALSO THE ONE WHO MANAGED THE SPANISH SELECTION FOR SUCCESS AT THE EURO 2008. ANCIENT MAN MANAGER, IT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH THE TIKI-TAKA, WITHOUT BEING THE ARCHITECT. 45 FRANK RIJKAARD (NETHERLANDS, 1998-2013) ROUTE: NETHERLANDS, SPARTA ROTTERDAM, FC BARCELONA, GALATASARAY, SAUDI ARABIA. ITS ARMS: THE C1 WINS ON THE BENCH OF BARÇA IN 2006. THE FOURTH AND LAST OF THE FOUR NETHERLANDS COACHES OF BARÇA IS ALSO THAT BRINGS THE CLUB BACK ON TRACK TO THE SECOND C1. LESS DOGMATIC AS CRUYFF OR VAN GAAL, LESS STRICT AS MICHELS, THREE MEN WHO HAD HEADED IT, HE WAS ALREADY THE HEIR OF THE TRADITION OF AJAX, 4-3-3 AND BALL POSSESSION. 46 OTTO REHHAGEL (GERMANY, 1974-2012) COURSE: KICKERS OFFENBACH, WERDER BREMEN, BORUSSIA DORTMUND, ARMINIA BIELEFELD, FORTUNA DÜSSELDORF, BAYERN MUNICH, KAISERSLAUTERN, GREECE, HERTHA BERLIN. HIS ARMS: WINNER OF CUP WINNERS CUP WITH WERDER BREMEN IN 1992. NO ONE HAS FORGOTTEN HISTORICAL HOLD-UP WITH GREECE DURING EURO 2004, WITH IN PARTICULAR A SUCCESS IN FINAL AGAINST PORTUGAL THE ORGANIZING COUNTRY. BUT IT IS ALSO THE RECORDMAN OF LONGEVITY IN BUNDESLIGA (832 MATCHES ON BENCH) AND THE SPECIALIST OF THE MIRACLES (THREE CHAMPION TITLES WITH THE WERDER BREMEN IN 1988 AND 1993 AND FC KAISERSLAUTERN, A PROMO, IN 1998). HAD RUDI VÖLLER WHICH HOLDS IT FOR "THE MOST IMPORTANT COACH OF (HIS) CAREER. HE ALWAYS BELIEVES THE IMPOSSIBLE." 47 RAYMOND GOETHALS (BELGIUM, 1956-1994) COURSE: HANNUT, WAREMME, SAINT-TROND, BELGIUM, ANDERLECHT, BORDEAUX, SAO PAULO FC, STANDARD OF LIÈGE, VITORIA GUIMARAES, RACING JET OF BRUSSELS, ANDERLECHT, BORDEAUX, MARSEILLE, ANDERLECHT. HIS ARMS: THE LEAGUE OF CHAMPIONS OF OM IN 1993. EVEN IF HE DISPUTES FOUR EUROPEAN FINALS, "RAYMOND-LA-SCIENCE" WILL REMAIN BELGIUM'S SMOKER WHICH BRINGS OM TO THE ONLY C1 OF FRENCH FOOTBALL. KNOWN FOR CREATIVE NAMES, FROM OMLETA (OLMETA) TO TZIGANE (ZIDANE), AND TO BE A MAN OF GOOD WORDS WHO CONFIRMED, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT "RENSENBRINK COULD TRANSFORM A SHIT IN SPICE BREAD". 48 MARCELO BIELSA (ARGENTINA, SINCE 1990) COURSE: NEWELL'S OLD BOYS, CF ATLAS, AMERICA, VELEZ SARSFIELD, ESPANYOL BARCELONA, ARGENTINA, CHILE, ATHLETIC BILBAO, MARSEILLE, LAZIO ROME, LILLE, LEEDS UNITED. HIS WEAPON: THE YEAR 1992 WHERE, WITH NEWELL'S, HE WON THE TITLE OF CHAMPION (CLOSING TOURNAMENT) AND DISPUTE THE FINAL OF COPA LIBERTADORES. ANOTHER ONE THAT WILL LEAVE IN MARSEILLE AN INDELIBLE TRACE. HIS CREDO: ORGANIZATION, ADAPTATION AND MARKING IN THE PANTY. PARITISAN OF THE ATTACK AT A POINT, EL LOCO HAS ALWAYS PRIVILEGED THE GAME TO THE RESULT. IT REMAINS FAITHFUL TO HIS PRINCIPLES AND ITS CHARACTER. HIS PALMARES HAS SUFFERED. ITS DURESS OF HIS LIFE IN CLUBS ALSO. 49 ANTONIO CONTE (ITALY, SINCE 2006) COURSE: AREZZO, BARI, ATALANTA BERGAMO, SIENA, JUVENTUS, ITALY, CHELSEA. ITS ARMS: CHAMPION OF ITALY WITH THE JUVE THREE YEARS FOLLOWING (2012, 2013 AND 2014). TO HAVE COVERED AT THE JUVE THE BEST OF ITALIAN COACHES (TRAPATTONI, LIPPI, ANCELOTTI), MORE SACCHI IN NATIONAL TEAM, THEN ALLOWED TO DEFINE ITS OWN PRINCIPLES OF PLAY: SHORT BLOCK, RAPID RECOVERY OF THE BALLOON, VERTICALITY AND INTENSITY. WHAT MAKES IT WIN? ITS TACTICAL SENSE, ITS ANALYSIS JUSTNESS, ITS ADAPTATION FORCE AND CAPACITY TO TIRE ITS PLAYERS TO THE MAXIMUM. 50 JEAN-CLAUDE SUAUDEAU (FRANCE, 1982-1997) COURSE: NANTES. ITS ARMS: CHAMPION OF FRANCE IN 1983 AND 1995 WITH TWO DIFFERENT GENERATIONS. EXCEPTIONAL RESEARCHER AND MONSTER OF CREATIVITY, APOSTLE OF A COLLECTIVE GAME PUT TO THE EXTREME, MOVES, PASSES, INTELLIGENT MOVEMENTS, CALLS AND FALSE TRACKS, THUS SUMMARIZING THE PROBLEM OF HIS BUSINESS: " RUNNING TOGETHER 10 GOOD HOMES IN A WISE MANNER TO PUT THE ADVERSARY OUT OF THE EQUILIBRIUM AND WIN, AND FOR A WHOLE SEASON, IT IS NOT EVIDENT ... " -------------------------------- Tried my best.
Actually you at best need a top 10 list, as for an all time greatest list I require you have to be a trend setter with lasting influences in even todays game. S o Happel is for me in that list as he carried in the Danube heritage to the Netherlands that evolved into the Dutch Total Football. So that's one from the weeded 50 list.
Clearly they place a lot on people who laid the foundations for success (Sacchi and Shankly for instance). I guess they bunch Buckingham (rightly or wrongly) in that category. I agree on Bielsa. Clearly an important coach but his achievements are limited and he has a habit of seeing teams fall away. I (biased) would suggest the inclusion of Bill Nicholson.
My friends, I'm struggling with ordering the following 2 sets: Ferguson vs Parreira Pozzo vs Del Bosque Your reasoning is much appreciated!
That's what I was thinking about too! (and was also think whether I was confusing it with Rolff his 1986 job)! There was once a compilation of his 1983 final, but seem to be deleted. What they write is in principal confirmed by this quote... „Vor dem Endspiel im Europapokal 1983 gegen Juventus Turin hat er einen Spaziergang auf einem Golfplatz anberaumt. Jakobs, Kaltz, Magath und ich waren dabei. Es sollte geklärt werden: Platini in Manndeckung nehmen, ja oder nein? Wir haben das Für und Wider abgewogen. Wir waren der Meinung, dass es nicht Not tut und Happel sagte: ,Gut, dann bleiben wir dabei, spielen wir keine Manndeckung’. Hat ja ganz gut geklappt.“ – Horst Hrubesch im Interview mit welt.de https://spielverlagerung.de/2012/11/14/ernst-happel-grantler-genie/ But 'tactics nerd' Escher ("no centimeter space") as well as SoFoot or 11Freunde indeed talk about man marking. https://books.google.com/books?id=gr3vCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=PT135&dq=wolfgang+rolff+1983+platini&source=bl&ots=aTwpeDWF92&sig=ACfU3U1TrKxDhJCtJ5oj8dxZz3nQIDo_mg&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwzs2Fg5bhAhUBbFAKHdy-DcAQ6AEwDHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=wolfgang rolff 1983 platini&f=false https://www.sofoot.com/la-manita-de-la-lose-202451.html https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/europapokal-1983-hsv-juventus-10 This also adds confusion: Rolff: Anyway, we had an outstanding keeper, Uli Stein, and as a team we were incredibly compact. - Who did you mark? Rolff: Platini. https://www.dfb.de/news/detail/rolff-on-an-impressive-year-in-1983-a-dream-season-113379/?no_cache=1 https://www.weser-kurier.de/sport/f...ab-mich-von-Platini-geloest-_arid,889442.html ---------------------------------------- Sie galten ja als der typische Kettenhund, der die gegnerischen Spielmacher ausschaltet. Laufstark, zweikampfstark, robust. Michel Platini, ihr Gegenspieler im Landesmeister-Finale 1983, wird sich sicherlich noch daran erinnern. Wie sah ihre Vorbereitung auf den Gegner aus? Jeder Spieler hat ja seine Funktion innerhalb der Mannschaft. Wenn wir gegen Mannschaften gespielt haben, die individuelle Klassespieler wie Michel, Laudrup, Platini oder wie diese so genannten Spielmachertypen alle hießen, in ihren Reihen hatten, hat man schon geschaut, wer gegen wen spielen soll. Da hieß es dann: Okay, du hast schon 1986 gegen den gespielt, das ist deiner. Die Funktion würde heute wahrscheinlich ein Torsten Frings übernehmen, wenn man denn unbedingt einen einzelnen Spieler aus der Partie nehmen müsste. https://www.11freunde.de/interview/wolfgang-rolff-im-interview --------------------------------- So the best way would be to check the match or compilation (if it's still there - from memory I'd certainly say "no centimeter" is an exaggeration, compared to for ex. Vogts on Keegan, Cruijff, Dzajic, Schwarzenbeck on Rensenbrink in 1976, or Vierchowod later). I wasn't 100% sure to make a comment about it, also knowing Happel his tendencies a bit. What I think makes sense and is correct, is that he occasionally consulted his key players on key decisions, something that was not common in every culture and/or club.
Agreed. Especially given the manner of how he kept advancing in CL - not any different than how Juve got past Atletico. Interestingly, when this thread started in 2007 posters were making the same mistake with Mourinho. Although Mourinho already had a very good resume in 2007 (much better than ZZ in 2019), putting Mou in top 5 or 6 all-time in 2007 was still premature. Both examples are a good illustrations of getting carried-away with the here-and-now. When putting together all-time lists, its important to keep in mind that it shouldn't even be possible for an active person to drop lower in the list. Well, unless he's surpassed by another active person. But if he gets surpassed by a dead guy, it means you had him too high in your list in the first place. With ZZ, is France Football telling me that he can't drop below 22nd if Madrid have a couple of poor seasons? Please...
Touching on the ZZ theme, I would think Arthur Rowe was on target to be getting a place somewhere (given the foundations he laid in style etc for Nicholson's teams - I know Forest under Billy Walker were said to take inspiration from the 'Push and Run' game too and maybe others did) but I guess his tenure, and period of success was just too short even though it had been immediate and extreme given where Tottenham were when he took over, and he can't quite be seen as the Shankly to Nicholson being the Paisley.... I probably should have looked again at the list before posting but I'm thinking he's not in it anyway!
Weakness of Lippi: Outside of Juventus his record is pretty weak (for Cesena, Atalanta, Napoli and especially Inter - Napoli was in big financial troubles) on all fronts. Unlike other trainers he did return successfully to a previous club, Juventus, after Juventus had lost a little bit of their winning ways. His first spell with Italy was of course a big success (not without a fortunate route and some luck), his second a disaster. He is not out of sync for a top 50 but this needs to be said since he's habitually included in many top 20s.
Yes that is what my query is about this post. That it's now the time to explain (further) why you are "pretty sure" Guardiola, Michels, Rocco, Herrera, Shankly have to be excluded. I wouldn't say they have to be excluded but I agree with you there are arguments to put Paisley ahead (especially since his was Shankly his assistant all the time, with input on tactics and player preparation) and there are also a number of strong and verifiable arguments to put Cruijff ahead of Michels (e.g. we know, as confirmed by Wilson his latest book, he got involved early and his first ever contribution to VI was one of that type - but also what the one did without the other as player/manager). In terms of your Rocco = Rivera equation, he also managed Padova, Torino and Fiorentina (winning Coppa Italia) with some good results I'd say. All above their 'usual' level. Padova had their best ever spell under him, Torino (perhaps) their best spell since Superga and Fiorentina wasn't certain of winning things.
Yeah, he was probably not on his back every seconds of the match but I think that he was marking him closely enough to permit us to talk about "individual marking" though. I have not re-watched that said. The thing is that he did not always follow him in every corners of the field I think : as said in your post, the HSV team was compact enough (especially on this match) and they could interchange as to know who takes in charge Platini when the latter moved away from his main marker.
Now I've watch the 20 first minutes (until the goal + 2 or 3 minutes) and Rolff is still pursuing Platini everywhere for the moment. Magath scored right after that Juventus missed a clear chance on a great action. HSV was not so compact until then. Moving a bit forward in the video now: after this early goal, Juve doesn't take all the risks in order to equalize and prefer to leave the ball to HSV in order to avoid a second goal and try their luck in counter-attacks. In these conditions, HSV looked more compact indeed, by not taking much risks themselves and dealing quite confortably with Juventus attempts on counters which were not played completely neither. I have not watched the second half but we know that the Germans kept the result as the Italians had less and less chances as the clock ticked down minute by minute. Juve missed this rendez-vous.
A cycle completes, as I save my login on this other laptop. I do a whole essay on Rocco, post it and........get asked for my login, losing the whole essay. I am still annoyed! In summary, Roco did not win the Coppa with Fiorentina, Mazzoni managed the last 7 matches or so. However, Rocco is not Rivera. Rocco is a top manager for the short term, as he does seem to wear out on his players. At Padova players came and went so Rocco remained effective. But his best results were within the first season(s) of being (re)appointed.
Hmm yes, that also helped Rijkaard I suppose (he wasn't too bad as national team coach, with a bit less bad luck he had won euro 2000 and certainly reached the final). But whether he deserves to be ahead of Kenny Dalglish, to name another former high profile player going into full-time management, is material for doubt. In general the list has a (too) high Barca/NED representation although I like it they don't follow the usual modern internet/social media tendencies of the past 20 years (like that BBC crap).
Yes you are right. Rocco left at the end of may 1975 and Mazzoni managed the cup final and the last 6 league games. Yes after some further look I think you have a point with this. He was a bit like Mourinho in that respect. He did manage Torino to their best result since Superga but ran out of steam after 2.5 years. Unlike lofted company as Sacchi, Capello and Michels he returned with succes to his previous club (Sacchi's 2nd stint with Milan was a disaster, and Michels 2nd stint at Ajax was also one of the poorest of the 1970s to end of 90s). In case you and others are interested, here a 'scientific' article (of the royal academy of science) about him: http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/bwn1880-2000/lemmata/bwn6/michels
(also for others as @PDG1978 and maybe feedback by @annoyedbyneedoflogin ?) Probably some are already aware but as far as British figures go, Jack Reynolds is the biggest Ajax legend, someone who was directly associated to the club for 24 years. The seated stand (opposite to the 'honor stand') of the old De Meer stadium had his name. You can argue about 'tactics' and such (proponent of the pyramid and wm system) but what he did help to do is setting the lower youth levels and the club to the direction of emphasizing positive play. More a game and enjoyment than winning above else, hence the later comments by Jeffery in his 1963 book and the WS overview of 1965. The wikipedia article summarizes it quite well: "The games were canceled and Jack Reynolds fled to neutral Netherlands. In Amsterdam he became the successor of Ajax 's first coach , John Kirwan. He doubled the number of training evenings from one to two and put a lot of emphasis on discipline and strength training. Jack Reynolds also deployed his vision on youth education. He worked for HFC Helder in the 1916/17 season . For the duration of the championship competition of 1920, he was appointed as trainer of MVV. Tactical comments were not yet a point of discussion during that period. The Brit always wore a suit with a bowler hat along the line." https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Reynolds Interestingly, France Football their own graph (see previous page) has a much more prominent line running from Reynolds to Michels (who knew each other and worked with each other) than Buckingham. Also here is wikipedia again not too far off from the truth: "Three years later, however, the Englishman was back on the training field on the Middenweg in the Watergraafsmeer. It was not a success. Buckinham did not want to participate in the idea that 4-2-4 was the best system and only sent his team into the field with the remark 'enjoy it'. Disorder was the result and in 1965 he himself applied for dissolution of his contract [...]" Now I didn't overlook the twist Buckingham was also at Barcelona for 1 year and 4 months and he himself had a part in bringing the "Dutch duo" to the city. But basically you can't do much structural in 16 months and the rest of history showed it. tl;dr - Jack Reynolds can be considered as the father of the general spirit of the club, during the amateur era at least.
... and it continues. Third season in a row now his team doesn't make the semis (while doing that the season before his arrival, just like Bayern winning treble before him etc.). He does make players better and his league record is tremendous (all-time highest win percentages in three leagues, though none of them building from scratch) but you can say indeed he should do better in the CL given the ridiculous spending.
Yes they are http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr37/en/ In wages Man City is between fifth and ninth, depending on bonuses, but we know now they're experts in cooking the books...
He's now lost three straight QF when Man City was clear favorite. The most hilarious point being that these last two came against teams from his own league, teams where Man City were 'clearly' superior if you took a look at league standings. He's overrated.