Ok, we had the The Ultimate Football player discussion littered with everyones list of the top 25. Now its the coaches turn, they are the masterminds behind every player or game. So who's your top 25 football coaches on all time? it may not be on a national team scale but you be might be hard pushed to convince others about any unknown coaches unless they are very much way ahead of everyones in one of the top well known domestic league in the world. Well? Anyone able to complied a list to start off with?
I don't know about a list just now, but I'll throw in some names from the past who should be considered. Herbert Chapman Bela Guttmann Jimmy Hogan Stan Cullis Sepp Herberger Hugo Meisl Vittorio Pozzo
ok, here's my list: (I might not get the full names right, and you may CERTAINLY disagree with my choices, but here we go) 1. Rinus Michels - manager of the GREAT Dutch sides of the 70s (Cruyff, Rensenbrink, Rep, Nanninga, etc.) 2. Brian Clough 3. Jose Mourinho 4. Sir Alf Ramsey 5. Jock Stein 6. Hennes Weisweiler 7. Aime Jacquet 8. Marcello Lippi 9. Valeri Lobanovsky (Dynamo Kiev manager) 10. Sir Alex Ferguson' 11. Arsene Wenger 12. Guus Hiddink 13. Bill Shankly 14. Sir Matt Busby 15. Mario Zagallo 16. Franz Beckenbauer 17. Bruce Arena 18. Guy Roux 19. Raymond Goethals 20. Didier Deschamps 21. Paul leGuen 22. Gustaf Sebes (managed Hungary in their demolition of England at Wembley) 23. Fatih Terim 24. Otto Rehhagel 25. Roger Lemerre
Not sure if you were just trying to include a Brazilian in there ... but Zagallo is NOT a great coach. Maybe you are including him because he coached the '70 team. But he only took over the team a few months before the competition when the team was already qualified and had little to do. In WC'98 he was truly clueless. As for Brazilians, I place Scolari, Tele Santana and probably a few others over Zagallo.
Point taken - especially Tele Santana - and I forgot MZ coached in the final, where Brazil was clueless. Can't also discount Big Phil......England wishes they had his services instead of that MacClaren...... My list is certainly not etched in stone - or it'd be a pile of rubble by now!
I knew this would be more European-based, but Ramon Diaz and Carlos Bianchi worked wonders in Argentina.
True - the Argies are so good at team sports (rugby, basketball- Ginobili and Nocioni and that's it - are the current Olympic gold medal holders!) - and that's due to good managers.
It's really difficult to me making a list of coaches, but I definitely would add these: - Rinus Michels - Carlos Bianchi - Marcello Lippi - Arsene Wenger - Álex Ferguson - Telé Santana - Franz Beckenbauer
The Gods(in no particular order) 1. Rinus Michaels 2. Alf Ramsey 3. Sir Alex Fergusen 4. Marcelo Lippi 5. Bora Milutinovic Great coaches 1. Jose Mourinho 2. Aime Jaquet 3. Arsene Wenger 4. Felipe(Big Phil) Scolari 5. Bruce Arena 6. Carlos Bianchi 7. Guus Hiddink 8. Javier Aguirre 9. Otto Rehhagel 10. Helmot Schon
He was amazing. Changed Benfica, in both good and bad, bad because he cursed the Portuguese league by saying they'd never win another EC, but of course that was defeated by Porto, but Benfica have lost 5 EC finals since then! And 1 UEFA Cup.
Goethals far, far, far, far, far behind those others and especially Guy Roux who's never been an ambitious and won only one title and never ever reached a Europe Cup final. Jacquet is much respected because he won in 1998 but he never looked like Trappatoni when he was coaching Bordeaux in the 80's. Lemerre achieved the continuity of 1998 but he has nothing special (Tunisian fans will confirm you). Wenger is far behind Jacquet and the others. There's a list of the best coaches of my League that I know of: 1) Albert Batteux (Reims, French NT 58) 2) Helenio Herrera 3) Raymond Goethals 4) Jean-Claude Suaudeau (the fabulous FC Nantes 94-96) 5) Arsène Wenger 6) Aimé Jacquet 7) Gérard Houllier 8) Didier Deschamps 9) Guy Roux 10) Lucien Leduc
Merci beaucoup, Catel. My logic (tweisted as it may be)is a combination of club success and /or NT success. Roux managed a side in a small town with very limited resources very, very well. (Imagine if En Avant Guingamp did the same for years- they did well for their moment in the sun because they had two players named, well, Drogba and Malouda- btw, Stade Roudourou is a GREAT place to see a game) So what if he had limited ambition? Houllier had success with Liverpool, but was a disaster in the run-up to USA 1994..... Could/should Wenger manage at the national level? If so, for which country??? (can recall ASM really screwed him over) Give you props for Batteux - ahead of his time......
Mate, that list you gave is the opposite of what you just said. You say that Raymond Goethals was far behind many including Guy Roux yet you have him at 3 and Guy Roux at 9? You say that Jacquet is never looked like Trappatoni but Trappatoni isn't on your list and Jacquet is then you say Arsène Wenger is behind Aimé Jacquet but you list Wenger at 5 and Jacquet at 6. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Have you been drinking some French Wine when you posted this?
No, I just lost my French-English dictionary. Replace "behind" by "before". Sorry. (and Trappatoni never worked with a French team, though it could happen if what he said last summer was true.)
1. Vittorio Pozzo - the only man to have won two World Cups. He made the Azzurri and calcio a force 2. Rinus Michels - the man credited for inventing Total Football. His Dutch sides rank amongst the most intelligent and most entertaining sides ever 3. Sepp Herberger - without Sepp, who knows if Germany would have been a force in world football. Managed Greater Germany/West Germany for nearly 30 years. He pulled off the "Miracle of Berne" against the Maigc Magyars in 1954. An inspiration for many West German managers, especially Helmut Schoen 4. Helmut Schoen - although Michels and Cryuff get a lot of credit for playing Total Football, Schoen's sides started playing it from an earlier time at NT level. Wins at Euro 72 and WC 74 illustrate that. Despite some bad luck in the 1970 World Cup semi-final aginst Italy, Schoen was great at making the right substitutions 5. Hugo Meisl - a follower of Scotland's short-passing game, he invented the "Vienna School", another version of the short-passing game. Meisl was the force behind das Wunderteam, the Austrian NT of the early 30s 6. Herbert Chapman - invented the WM formation. Thanks to him Arsenal became the most powerful side in London and all of England 7. Gustav Sebes - along with Marton Bukovi, he pionnered the 4-2-4 formation. Managed Hungary when they had their greatest generation of players 8. Bela Guttmann - another manager who brought the 4-2-4 into action. Benfica hasn't been a force in Europe since he left 9. Helenio Herrera - had a great pedigree at Barca and he perfected catenaccio at Inter 10. Matt Busby - created great sides from little remains. He insisted in bringing in youngsters and most of them are ranked amongst the greats of English football 11. Giovanni Trapattoni - he has won many trophies at club level. At Juve, he transformed them from a club that was only a force in Italy to a club that was also a force in Europe 12. Ernst Happel - won a plethora of trophies, most famous of all Feyenoord's 1970 European Cup win and Hamburg's 1983 win in the same competition. He also managed a Holland side that nearly won the World Cup without Cryuff 13. Marcello Lippi - coached Juve's great side in the mid-to-late 90s and Italy to it's fourth World Cup. His sides played with flair and not in the stereotypical manner Italian sides are known for 14. Carlos Bianchi - Boca Juniors are a force in the Copa Libertadores thanks to him, even if they're selling their youngsters 15. Sir Alex Ferguson - he made Man U a force again. Man U are the most successful team in the EPL's history thanks to him 16. Bill Shankly - Liverpool became a great side due to his management. He laid the foundations for Paisley and Fagan 17. Valeri Lobanovsky - he had his style of Total Football and made Dynamo Kiev the best side from Eastern Europe. Soviets sides were known to lack flair and invention but his sides had those characteristics 18. Albert Batteux - Reims had a great team in the 50s thanks to him and France had a great 1958 World Cup because of him. He believed in "Champagne Football" and he believed in players expressing themselves 19. Enzo Bearzot - in Italy's catenaccio era, he wanted gli azzurri to attack. He also banned the media from interviewing his players. He proved his critics wrong when he won the 1982 World Cup 20. Johan Cruyff - created another great Ajax side in the 80s and coached Barca's "Dream Team" in the 90s 21. Tele Santana - his sides represented the style and flair of the game. Luck was against him in the 80s when coaching Brazil but he did win two Copa Libertadores titles with Sao Paolo 22. Brian Clough - anybody who can take a small club like Notts Forest from the Second Division to two European Cups in a short time must be very special 23. Alf Ramsey - invented the 4-4-2 formation. Managed Engliand to their only World Cup 24. Ottmar Hitzfeld - under his leadership, Borussia Dortmund became a force in the 90s 25. Tomislav Ivic - coaches from the former Yugoslavia deserve a mention and Ivic won many trophies in all different leagues. Fabio Capello, Juan Carlos Lorenzo and Don Revie were unlucky to miss out. What's the general thought on Michel Hidalgo?
Quiet the same as Aimé Jacquet: won an international tournament, and popular for that, but nothing really else. It is used to say that he learned everything from Stefan Kovacs, whom I forgot to keep a place for in my chart.
Bob Paisley at least deserves a mention of all time coaches if Wenger, Mourinho and Houllier are in there. He knew how to win championships for fun and the odd European cup. 14 major trophies in 9 years 6 league titles 3 European cups 1 UEFA cup 1 UEFA Super cup 3 League cups and 5 Charity shields thrown in too for good measure. Not bad really. He rivals Ferguson for tophies. And before we spark off a club v club arguement I'm not a Liverpool fan.
Lots of hate really. I'm aware that his Milan sides were very influential and innovative but IMHO, he made a mess with the Azzurri. At Milan, his team was credited for bringing catenaccio to its knees. Sacchi's zonal defending, the 4-4-2 and the pressing game proved to be very successful but with the Azzurri, we saw a different Arrigo. Italy did reach the 1994 Final but Roberto Baggio must be given most of the credit. His goals against Nigeria, Spain and Bulgaria saved Sacchi's backside. He had the team top play great calcio but Sacchi only made a team with workhorses. Even if the players weren't injured, he kept rotating the team. He left players such as Bergomi, Ferrara, Lombardo and Mancini at home and he brought that donkey Nicola Berti and versatile but not a world-class player in Daniele Massaro. Massaro did star in the 1994 CL Final but he was not a great finisher like Signori. At 1996, Sacchi showed how absurd he could be. He didn't bring Baggio or Signori and he had guys like Rossitto and Carboni in the team. Sacchi should have should Baggio more respect and played Signori in his proper position, not in his old position.
I agree. He actually had very little faith in Baggio in 1994, selecting him in the first round out of eleven players for a substitution when the goalkeeper was injured, an insult Baggio never forgave him for. He still carried the Azzurri to the final.