The true state of the 3 Canadian franchise in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Robert Borden, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The status of those 3 teams was always a source of speculation and confusion. To have a clear idea about the state of those teams within the FIFA umbrella, we have to read FIFA conventions.

    The USL president gave a crystal clear answer to that question while he was talking about the Canadian Premier League:



    https://the11.ca/usl-president-says-canada-needs-its-own-league/
    • While the Ottawa Fury are committed to return to USL in 2018, USL President Jake Edwards said that the team’s membership in the North American Division-2 circuit is on a year-to-year basis.
    • the Fury don’t have long-term obligations to USL which would potentially block it from moving to the Canadian Premier League down the road — if that’s the path that the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group want to take.
    • “We feel Canada needs its own professional league,” he said.
    • In a conference call with media on Friday, Edwards said that Canadian teams in cross-border leagues are only sanctioned by the Canadian Soccer League on an annual basis.
    There you have it folks, he's pretty much confirming that the CSA does indeed have the last say in regards to Canadian teams competing in cross-border leagues and that the sanction is awarded on a year to year basis only. This confirms that Victor Montagliani's threat last year of pulling all 3 Canadian clubs from MLS when he was the CSA president was actually factual and legit which are granted under FIFA's convention.

    The CSA said they had no intentions to end the sanctioning at MLS level but will be pushing harder for a better status for Canadian players in the league. The CSA is already imposing a ban on Canadian teams to join USSF leagues. It's slowly moving towards "divorcing" USSF. As of now, the 3 Canadian MLS clubs will most likely be the last link between the CSA and the USSF via MLS.

    Just wanted to clarify ;)
     
  2. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did anyone deny this fact? IIRC the conversation correctly it was around the reality of that ever actually happening and it being successful, not the fact that they ad the right to do it (or at least attempt it).
     
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  3. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Some people did deny it and claimed that the 3 clubs were somewhat linked to MLS via a multi-year, even forever, some sort of sanction deal between MLS and the CSA.

    Just wanted to debunk that. Also, the CSA is clearly on a "divorce" path with the USSF. It started with:
    1. CSA imposing a ban on future sanctioning of Canadian clubs in USSF leagues.
    2. Next is both Ottawa Fury (USL) and FC Edmonton (NASL) joining CPL under the CSA pyramid.
    3. Vancouver Whitecaps will move their USL club to Fresno, which displeased a lot of fans in Vancouver and high ups in Canada Soccer. That's 1 less USSF club in Canada.
    4. Once the D3 Regional leagues revamp planned by the CSA is complete, that will be the end of PDL in Canada.
    5. TFC will have a decision to make in regards to TFC II. CPL II or consolidating with TFC III in Ligue1 Ontario seems like their only options
    At the end, the 3 MLS clubs will be the final ties between the CSA and the USSF. If CPL thrive and they are indeed the last 3 still standing, anything short than:
    • Canadian players being granted domestic status by MLS
    • Americans losing domestic status on Canadian clubs
    • the Canadian clubs doing whatever the CSA wants them to do to keep playing in MLS (mainly some sort of quota for Canadian players)
    will result as the end of the CSA sanction of MLS in Canada which is fully within their right to do. Those clubs would have little choices:
    • Fold & Sell (not happening)
    • Move to the US (Not happening)
    • Join the Canadian Premier League
    Regardless of what happens, the CSA makes it clear that the divorce will happen. In regards to MLS in Canada, that's totally up to MLS and/or the 3 Canadian Clubs to make sure they meet the CSA requirements to have their sanction renewed. Those requirements are expected to get tougher as time goes by
     
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  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough, I didn't see/remember those posts

    And here you veer back into speculation territory with a lot more confidence than the situation deserves.
     
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  5. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Then why would the CSA impose a moratory to prevent new clubs from joining USSF leagues? Why aren't USSF league expanding in Canada? Is it because they aren't interest (MLS clearly isn't) or because they simply can't?

    As for the 3 MLS clubs, Montaglian's whole term as CSA president really puts the emphasis on Canada Soccer shift in direction. Montagliani saw little value to the status quo of the CSA and USSF being together at club level. The results simply aren't there to justify status quo and the only way for Canada to improve is to develop players at all levels under its full jurisdiction.

    Without diminishing what MLS brought to Canada Soccer, it's insufficient, ineffective and unfair as both parties clearly aren't getting equal/comparable benefits. That's why he started to threaten MLS and the league responded with its "homegrown program" to appease him.

    It's an improvement, but still clearly insufficient. The CSA will most likely demand more as CPL grows as they will be a major shareholder of the league. It's up to MLS and the 3 clubs to comply whenever the CSA makes new demands.
     
  6. When Saturday Comes

    Apr 9, 2012
    Calgary
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    This.

    In reality if the CSA attempted to pull Toronto FC from MLS it would bankrupt both the CSA and CPL - and very soon TFC would cease to exist (after MLSE and the MLS Players Association have won their lawsuits).
     
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  7. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #7 Robert Borden, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
    The key here is not "pulling" TFC out of MLS or forcing anyone into CPL. It's simply that...not renewing the sanctioning of the CSA.

    There can't be a lawsuit for that. CSA makes demands, MLS and/or the 3 Canadian clubs complies or they dont. It's totally in their hands.

    Important fact to remember as well, those 3 clubs are members of the CSA and not of the USSF. Don't you agree that it's about time they start satisfying what the CSA expect from them after all these years of being allowed to do whatever they wanted?
     
  8. When Saturday Comes

    Apr 9, 2012
    Calgary
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Pulling their sanction will kill the club and you know that. And there will be lawsuits. Plenty of them. The CSA will have to prove to a judge why sanctioning TFC to play in MLS in 2007 and 2019 and 2025 is alright but not in 2027. The damages will be in the hundreds of millions. It will wipe out the CSA.

    I really don't think you have thought this through. The CPL will never have the revenues to support a TFC $20m payroll (Probabbly close to double that in another decade).. Not even close. Who is going to pay the contracts of the players registered at MLS head office? Or do you think the MLSPU will be fine with just foregoing the remaining paycheques owed to the TFC players?

    What about the sponsorships? Naming rights agreements? Leases for suites? City of Toronto deal with MLSE to manage BMO Field?

    Also, TFC employs close to 4,000 people directly. What happens to them?

    The CPL will hopefully be a good league, averaging 5k to 12k PAID fans a match playing from May to October. To suggest that the CSA will do anything to harm the 3 MLS clubs, which removing the sanction will do, in order to help the CPL would be the dumbest thing our soccer association would ever do.
     
  9. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    Sure he has.....in his world, which makes perfect sense.

    The sky is also bright pink and everyone poops rainbow sherbert.
     
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  10. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not if they start complying with what the CSA is asking of them. Also, pulling their sanction just means they can't play in MLS, not anywhere else

    What lawsuits? If the CSA make tougher demands and the clubs refuses to comply or MLS refuses, it's within the CSA's right to pull their sanction. That right is granted by FIFA convention. Suing the CSA means that you're suing FIFA directly which can't lead to anything good.

    Also, pretty sure any judge would question why aren't the club and the league complying or negotiating with the CSA in good faith to begin with. USSF impose rules on clubs and MLS, the CSA seeking the same for their own clubs and players is not unreasonable, no judge would think that.

    The more incentive to start complying to the CSA. Don't get me wrong, if they start to get serious about Canadian players and development they should stay in MLS. That's not whats going on right now. They've been allowed for far too long to do whatever they want and they aren't doing much to help Canada soccer program.

    CPL gives the CSA leverage to make more demands. It will be interesting to see if they will comply or not. The voluntary approach is coming to an end, started last year actually when the CSA start forcing them to play a minimum of Canadians during the Canadian Championship, they won't stop there.

    I will keep making the same point. The CSA had a voluntary approach towards those clubs and MLS in regards to Canadian players and development. If those clubs wants to keep all they have right now, its truly in their hands. Status quo has ended and the CSA has already started to impose restrictions on them. It will just get tougher from now on.

    It wouldn't be to help CPL but to help Canada Soccer fulfill their mandate which those 3 are not doing. They need to be falling back in line. The USSF would never tolerate MLS clubs not playing nor developing American players, why should the CSA be any different?
     
  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    So the USSF can impose restrictions on the league and clubs to grant their sanctioning but the CSA who also sanction the league in Canada and have 3 of its clubs in the league wouldn't be able too as well?

    Yes, I've thought this through and so has the CSA. They aren't talking pulling the clubs since Montagliani did last time but that move made clear that there was a shift within the CSA. They publicly communicated that they could do it and they were willing to do it if it came to that. The USL President confirmed that. That's all.

    New rules are coming and they either comply or lose the sanctioning. It started last year during the Canadian Championship. The clubs had to comply or be ban for the tournament, in turns from qualifying to the Champions League.
     
  12. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It has already been posted that MLS cannot grant Canadian players domestic status because federal law requires all foreigners to be treated equally, and trying to give Canadian players domestic status would allow players not from USA or Canada to sue MLS for employment discrimination. I'm not saying I agree with the law. I'm just saying what the law is.

    Relegated clubs sell players they can't afford, and the same thing would happen to MLS clubs that move to a Canadian league and make less revenue. In terms of lost revenue, making Toronto play in a Canadian league would be like making one of the top clubs in Europe not play in the top level of its country.
     
  13. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #13 Robert Borden, Nov 12, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
    NASL and USL clearly didn't get the memo. But I'm more in favor of Canadians being domestic in Canada only while Americans would no longer counts as domestics in Canada.

    That's more fair.

    To be fair, over 80% of TFC salary is being paid to only 3 players (overpaid really).

    As for the Euro comparison you just made, I'm not sure I get it, Toronto is still a Canadian city, but CPL already have plans for Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver to have CPL clubs. The league made clear that it will succeed with the MLS franchise or without them.

    If anything, I'm surprised that MLS and American fans aren't questioning why 3 Canadian cities are in an American league while so many American cities are trying to get in the league.
     
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  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, as has been pointed out to you (multiple times I believe) in the past, the NASL and USL have yet to be sued over it (something MLS was threatened with after they had different rules in the 1996 season). This is not surprising considering the only person who would have standing to sue is an non-Canadian international player who was cut in place of a Canadian player who was being counted as a domestic. Then they would have to determine that the law was broken (not everyone knows the laws) and decide that his $50K/year job was worth getting into an protracted (and expensive) legal battle to get his job back. Or as an international player he could go to another league and probably just land a job.

    Just because the NASL & USL is getting away with it doesn't make it legal, nor does it mean MLS should try to get away with it. MLS is a much bigger target.
     
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  15. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Toronto had a 2017 regular season average attendance of 27,647. If the 3 Canadian clubs moved to a Canadian league, what do you think Toronto's average attendance would be? The same goes for Swansea City, whose attendance would drop if they played in the Welsh league and never got to host English clubs. The NBA and MLB have teams in Canada, and the NHL has seven Canadian teams, so Americans are used to having Canadian teams in their leagues. When Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver started, what American cities (if any) wanted and had stadiums for MLS clubs but were rejected in favor of Canadian clubs? I guess there could be Americans who wished a club would move from Canada to their city.
     
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  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Don't get me wrong. Like I said, I think Canadians being domestic in Canada and Americans not being domestic on Canadian teams would be sufficient
     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I doubt it would change as much as you think. Their attendance might be impressive but the viewership is still very bad.

    Can't compare Wales, (part of the UK) with Canada (not part of the United States)... Not even close

    Sure, but the CFL proved that an all Canadian League can work. CFL attendance is actually higher than MLS, same for TV viewership. It's doable for soccer, over time, no one expect that kind of performance immediately.

    None, but with MLS expanding nonstop, who knows what happens down the road
     
  18. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The UK has four national teams, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Regardless of how you think the parts of the UK should be treated, the UK is four "countries" according to FIFA. A player born right by Liberty Stadium where Swansea City plays with no connection to England would not be eligible for the English national team just like a player born by BMO Field with no connection to the USA wouldn't be eligible for the USA national team. From a purely soccer point of view, saying Wales is part of the UK would be like combining Canada, USA, and Mexico into one North American country. If we were talking about membership in the International Olympic Committee or United Nations then the UK would be different than how FIFA treats it. There are other members of FIFA that aren't independent like Puerto Rico. According to a Sporcle quiz, 10.9 percent of the members of FIFA aren't countries.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I know all that, I don't deny that. Culturally speaking, US/Canada aren't really as close as people think, that's what I meant to say
     
  20. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would the Canadian teams have the same number of foreign slots? Because if they did, their rosters would lack depth compared to the US MLS teams. There are 3 MLS teams for 35 millions Canadians. There are 20 MLS teams for 325 million Americans. Even if soccer infrastructure was the same, Canadian teams would be at a disadvantage. Throw in the large number of Latino immigrants in the US who disproportionally make up the talent pool, not to mention the weather advantages of SoCal or Texas over the Great White North, and it's an enormous burden.

    Actually, in the context of FIFA rules, they are THE EXACT SAME. They are different federations.
     
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  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #21 Robert Borden, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    obviously yeah, those are set by the league

    Iceland and Scandinavian countries are doing fine. Lack of minutes minutes is the problem, not talent. This is where not having a league has hurt Canada. If anything, most people are actually surprised that we aren't worse than we are without a domestic league. Bottom line is that the USSF/CSA association has been an epic failure and the CSA made that clear hence the beginning of the divorce between both associations.

    I happen to admire what Athletic Bilbao is doing in the Spanish League. Those 3 teams should have been doing a fraction of what they are doing. Right now, they aren't and the CSA is right to toughen the rules...or else.

    Also, I doubt many Americans would lose sleep over TFC no longer dominating the way they have been. Garber must have had nightmares about an all Canadian final, like Bettman does in the NHL.

    If anything, they have a slight advantage over all the other MLS clubs by double dipping in the domestic pool of both countries. Luckily, those 3 clubs have been horrible at developing Canadian talents. The best Canadian players are develop by our D3 or lower divisions and go to Europe or signed to MLS academy after being develop by other Canadian clubs.

    I wonder how Russia and Scandinavian nation manage. Look at Iceland...what a burden...For once since the 90s, we have a competent CSA who simply says, if those nation can get results, so can we

    I already answered that. I know that. I was referring to the cultural context where it's night and day in comparison to US/Canada
     
  22. When Saturday Comes

    Apr 9, 2012
    Calgary
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada

    1. Toronto FC in the CPL would draw less than 10K fans for the first few years then <5k until we fold. Montreal would be worse. It would be like Baseball Canada starting a new Cdn only baseball league and the Toronto Blue Jays moved to play in that new league.

    2. CFL attendance in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal is not higher than MLS - which are the only cities that have teams in both leagues. Yes, TV viewership is higher in the CFL because the CFL is 100 years old and VWFC and Impact are 9 years old (TFC 11) and because, guess what, football is more popular than soccer at the present time.

    If you really truly believe that the CSA won't be sued by not sanctioning TFC to play in MLS after they have done so for 35 years than I'm not sure we can have a proper discussion on that point so we will have to agree to disagree. But I really would like your answer to the question, "Who is going to pay the salaries of the players/staff etc under contract?" Choose whatever year want when TFC doesn't have a league to play in and tell me who pays. Most likely we will have 4 DP's and 2 TAM players on multi-year deals plus the coaching staff plus the academy staff plus the financing on BMO Field and the KIA Training Ground. Are you thinking MLSE will sell the club to someone in the US? Same with Vancouver and Montreal. That solves some of the financial burden but certainly not the infrastructure debt. And ofcourse that added bonus of losing 6,000 Cdn jobs over the three clubs
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #23 Robert Borden, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    So we have the Rugby Team Toronto Wolfpack. They played in the 3rd English Division. They aren't on TV, barely advertised, played in the same stadium that my amateur league rents in the summer. Ownership was able to put quality on the field, fly the team to England and flew the English teams to Toronto. They not only ended up having a profit, they obliterated the D3 teams (22-1-2) and promoted to D2. Let's put to rest once and for all the myth that Canadians can't start teams and managed them to success. You do know the NHL was born in Montreal right?

    What was the average attendance in the 1st year...for Rugby? 7000 people on average went to Lamport Stadium. Rugby is a sport you could say isn't mainstream here. The potential for soccer is several time higher.

    Montreal would be worse? I was born there. Montreal would be even easier:
    • 4M in the metro area
    • MLS Montreal Impact are on the east side, CPL could just move downtown or north of the mountain where the most populated and multicultural areas happens to be
    • CPL will have a team in Quebec City. Montreal and Quebec have a rivalry that transcends sports. That derby is an automatic sellout for both cities. Sorry to break it to you, but a Montreal vs Quebec will always surpass Montreal-Toronto or Montreal-Boston (Revolution should consider Boston)
    • The cultural card. Featuring Quebec/francophones are always a big draw. It's the most nationalistic province in the country. Something the Montreal Impact have yet to figure out by benching Francophones...and then they wonder why they can't draw more...
    Baseball? How many countries play that sport to begin with? Comparing Baseball with soccer (the whole planet plays it) is a poor comparison

    I'm talking league average vs league average. You want to pick cities to fit your argument, sure. But this further shows that soccer has surpassed football in the main 3 cities. Contrarily to MLS who has an American approach to markets, CPL has a European approach. Those metro areas are too big to not have multiple teams within them. With soccer's popularity within those 3 metro areas, multiple clubs within 2 divisions will happen and it has started
    • Surrey is looking to build a CPL stadium in Metro Vancouver. Vancouver or Burnaby (most likely) is a matter of time
    • Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton and Vaughan are coming to the Greater Toronto Area. Toronto proper is a matter of time.
    • Only Montreal has been quiet but the league's attention is towards Quebec City. That club will attract investors to Montreal to capitalize on the rivalry that Montreal Impact won't be able to take advantage of. CPL Montreal is inevitable.
    The CFL example was to show that despite having a 10th of the US population, we can have higher average attendances and TV viewership if something appeal to us (More Canadians watched last year MLS Semi-finals and finals than Americans watched the US semi-finals and finals..with a 10th of the population).

    The sanctioning rules of associations are FIFA rules. MLS suing the CSA means that the league would be suing FIFA itself. I'm asking you if you think that MLS would realistically go down that route or just comply to what the CSA will be asking?

    You might not be used to this but soccer is the exception where FIFA is bigger than an American League. The CSA have the right to not review their sanction, that's a fact that even the USL president confirmed. If MLS are unhappy, they can sue FIFA but that's a lost cause.

    Doesn't MLS own all the contracts? Obviously MLS either sells those contracts or they keep them

    Nope, but they'd have no choice but to join CPL at this point. They won't fold, sell or move. Like I said, them staying in MLS is totally within their control. They follow CSA rules, and they stay. They keep wanting to do whatever they want to do and they get pulled. Simple as that. CPL gives more leverage to the CSA to impose tougher regulations, which other associations around the world are doing.

    You understand my surprise when I read people saying "How dare the CSA impose rules on their own teams" instead of "yeah, that makes sense as even the USSF does the same to their league and teams". Would the USSF tolerate teams and leagues (NASL?) not following directives? I think not, so no one should be surprised that the CSA finally wants to do the same to improve our program
     
  24. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Mighty White of us Yanks to allow the Canucks to participate in OUR league in such sizeable numbers. Makes me proud to be Murican :)
     
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #25 Robert Borden, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Which league are you talking about? MLS or NHL.

    NHL was founded in Montreal in 1917 and the teams were all Canadian. Its predecessor (NHA) was there since 1909. National in NHL was initially for "Canada only". American teams joined only in 1924.

    In regards to MLS, the league granted franchises to the 3 teams, however, MLS needed the CSA's permission to be allowed to operate in Canada in the first place. That permission is valid for 1 year. The CSA has renewed it on a yearly basis since TFC joined the league in 2008.

    Just sharing info with the others her. Your comment was funny lmao :)
     

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