The Transgender Discussion [Strictly Moderated]

Yes the military would cover them.

As for prisons, here's an insane idea...why don't we let them decide which kind of prison they go to.

 

See I have a problem with this. If too many trans women go to one prison, then they may get a huge competitive advantage in basketball, softball, soccer & volleyball. Can't have that!

 

The undoing of American society, there.

 

As long as this is disclosed to the betting public, who cares.

 

Did Rollerball season start and I wasn't notified???
Damn!

 

The 14th?

I mean if a person that is biologically a male but identifies as women gets to pick what prison she wants to go to, why can't a male prisoner that identifies as male but wants to go to a women's prison pick? would he have to file paperwork to self identify as female for him to be allowed (even if it is just to get around any rule/regulation)? can the prisoner have standing to sue if he is denied even after getting the paper work to self identify as a she?

I guess there would have to be rules and regulations (obviously) about the process on what point a person can self-identify as an specific gender, one is at birth and perhaps there are regulations in place for babies born with both genders, maybe we can use that as a basis for when people want to change as grown ups.

Can they be the same for minors? would they need parental permission before they turn 18?

Should it be federal law or should it be left to the states?

 

Maybe, instead of being afraid of transgender people, we make it so that prisons aren't places where people are physically harmed and live in fear. Why don't we make prisons places where gender neutrality wouldn't be a problem.

I don't know, and those sound like great things to have a discussion over. My preference would be a federal law so it would apply to federal prisons as well, and we would ultimately choose an arbitrary age line for this.

 

I did not know this before but I guess there are surgeon's who perform reassignment operations for those who regret making the switch.

newsweeklink

 

A year seems like a pretty short time for such a drastic step.

But that’s just me commenting. I’m not advocating legislation.

 

I am sure the GOP Congress is going to work on this really soon.

 

In fact we already do exactly that and more.

I spent 20 months on a drug that had a very real, very well understood chance of killing me-- in return for a real, rather poorly understood chance of helping me.

(It was a bit of a Russian roulette game, but I won-- it restored the sight in my left eye, the hearing in my left ear, normalized the feeling down my left side, and for an unexpected bonus restored the sense of smell I had burned out with cigarettes decades ago, too.)

 

Maybe this was what Frank was getting at?

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I chopped a ball or two
And dealt with the ensuing depression

Yes there were times, I'm sure you knew
I hacked off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was a doubt
I ate it up & spit it out
I faced it all, I had the balls
And did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got
If not his genitals, then he has naught
To cut the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

 

But there have to be legal standards for this, I mean I was thinking about it in the way that if I ended up in Prison, I would prefer to go to a women's facility, if I all I would need is some legal paper where I say that I do not want to be identified as a male, but as a female, it may be worth doing it.

Now if I have to get an operation (even if free, provided by the government) I would have to end up in a male prison.


As AB says, maybe this would move us in the future to prisons that are co-ed.

 

oh no doubt, perhaps it is a miscalculation on my part, but I would have to assume that the chances of me getting beat up and anally [spell?] raped at a women's prison would be lower than at a males prison.

It may end up that it was a bad idea, but thinking about it, if that was an option, I would like my lawyers to explore that option.

At the end it probably will end up like when people try to claim insanity defense, it will be evaluated but psychologists and other "experts" and they will decide if yes or no.

Some will be incorrectly denied, some will be incorrectly accepted, it is how it goes.

One is happening now and needs regulation, standards and such, and I am sure they are happening on a state by state basis, and that may be just fine for a while.

The other is a long way in the future project (in the sense that it will take a long time to make the changes).


Edit: at the end prison rules may win out, and if some males make it to a women's prison and start committing rape, prison justice will be served by getting their junk cut off or just straight up getting murdered.

 

OK, I was hoping after being resurrected after many years this thread would die quickly. It hasn't yet. Unfortunately.

Opposite is not the appropriate term. There are no "opposites" when it comes to sex. There are "other" sexes. There are many sexes but if you must boil it down, at least use three: male (usually XY chromosomes, but not always), female (usually XX chromosomes, but not always) and intermediate (DSD, chromosomes vary).

That said, biologically speaking your comment that "you are never truly going to be the opposite sex" is lacking. We would first have to address how we define each sex. Do we do that genetically or phenotypically (based on genitals)? Is it a combination of the two? Simply put, while society tells you it is very simple and obvious, biologically it isn't. As such, it's helpful to be a little more flexible in your outlook.

Have you met people who have had sex change operations? If not, maybe you should get their perspective about "mutilating their body for some grass is greener pie in the sky". Personally, I think it would be awful if everyday you looked in the mirror thinking of yourself as a woman but seeing a male's body, or vice versa. And for the record, I blame our dichotomous, misinformed society for the agony some will experience because of it. That agony is generally not found in societies that recognize and accept more than two genders.

Who says the body is being ruined? Why would you think that? And what on earth does gay have to do with this? Quite frankly that's outlandish and somewhat offensive (or at the very least highly ignorant). I am gay and I have no desire whatsoever to change my genitals. I am a male, I am a man, and I am gay.

Sex, gender and sexual orientation are three independent aspects of the human being. Based on the best evidence out there, one is determined in large part by genetics, one is determined in large part by how the brain is wired, and one is determined in large part by how the anterior hypothalamus of the brain is developed between the 9th and 11th weeks of pregnancy by virtue of the interaction of androgen hormones, androgen receptors and the timing of when the hormones are released.

Transgender does not align with sexual orientation. Some transmen are attracted to women, others to men, some to both. Some transwomen are attracted to women, others to men, some to both.

These are excellent questions and different societies have different answers.

In many societies that separate sex and gender from each other there is no pressing need by people to change their body to fit societal expectations. However, in societies like ours that assume male=man and female=woman, there is a greater desire to fit the societal norms.

Consider how we have two third person singular pronouns for people in English (he, she). We assume he=man=male and she=woman=female. As a result of our non-flexible binary category, we then equip buildings with two restroom types - one for the he/man/males of the world and one for the she/woman/females of the world.

In Polynesian languages there is only one third person singular pronoun (variations of 'ia, depending on the language - all of which signify "that one person" or object, aka he/she/it). They don't dichotomize people and traditionally have recognized third gender categories (mahu, fa'afafine, fakaleiti, etc.). In those societies the third gender is accepted as they are and it is much more unusual for the third gender individuals to feel the need for a sex change (although that is increasing, especially in the Polynesian cultures that are now part of Western countries - aka Hawai'i, NZ Maori, etc.).

You're speaking out of ignorance here. Before sex-change operations occur there is considerable time spent in counseling.

The barbaric thing, in my mind, is how our society dictates that masculine people should be male, and male people should be masculine, that feminine people should be female, and female people should be feminine, and that nothing else is acceptable. And I'm speaking as a masculine male who likes masculine males.

 

Sexual orientation has actually been extensively studied. If you want to understand what leads to attraction, at least the biological aspects of it, I recommend Wilson and Qahman's Born Gay?: The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation. At the time it was published it was quite up-to-date on all the research. It also highlights that there are "many paths up the mountain". Epigenetic research has been showing it isn't as straight forward as some have assumed. Generally speaking, it is polygenic with a (prenatal) environmental influence. Subsequent studies from Sweden show that in roughly 1/3 of males and 1/6 of females, homosexuality is entirely genetic. In roughly 2/3 of males and 2/3 of females it is the prenatal environment that determines it (considered to be the influence of prenatal hormones in the fetus, combined with the androgen receptors and when the hormones are released - there is a very narrow window of opportunity for them to be absorbed into the anterior hypothalamus tissue, which partly controls sexual impulses), and for 1/6 of females their identified sexual orientation is determined post-natally.

Of interest, an estimated 1/6 of males are gay simply because of the number of male fetuses their mother carried before they were conceived. This is known as the fraternal birth-order effect and is one of those prenatal causes I mentioned in the above paragraph. The FBO effect has been observed in societies all over the world. Effectively, for every male fetus a woman carries it increases the chances the next male will be gay by 33% (keep in mind the odds are small to begin with - so 33% of 3%, for example, would be 1% more for a second male).

As far as correlations with other biological traits, there are many. One of the most interesting is with handedness. Gays and lesbians are roughly 39% more likely to be left-handed than straights are. Again handedness is thought to partially be determined by circulating hormones in the fetus during a key period of pregnancy. Given both traits appear influenced by hormones, it's not surprising to find correlations.

 

They get years of therapy already. How many more years would they need? And how much suffering should we subject them to by forcing them to live in a very hostile society that, in some places, insists they use a particular toilet even though that could endanger their lives to do so?

I'm sorry if I have sounded harsh in my posts. I just get really irritated when heterosexuals and cisgender people start debating the lives of non-heterosexuals and non-cisgender people. If you haven't walked in our shoes, whether they be high-heels, workboots, jandals or whatever, please don't dictate to us how we should live so that you can feel more comfortable with our choices.

 

Date or marry who you want. Chop things off, take hormones. Whatever. But for the love of God do not wear jandals! We look to the gay community for fashion trends.

 

I fly Air New Zealand a lot - and I try to fly Business whenever possible. I'm appalled at how many Kiwis wear jandals on the plane, and especially in Business. I don't want to see bare feet resting on the ottoman across from me!

 

@crazypete13

Personally, I think this thread should be shut down given the opening post is completely irrelevant so many years later (not to mention the inherent bigotry associated with it).

That said, let me add this. We in the LGBT+ community for millennia have lived according to the heterosexual cisgender rules. It's brought us nothing but brutal murders, high-suicide rates and low life expectancy rates. So I'm going to propose this - how about you all STFU about how we should live our lives and allow us to see what works for ourselves for a change? It really doesn't affect you. Seriously, it doesn't affect you if we shack up with someone of the same sex, if we have a sex change operation, etc. Your standards and morals are so incredibly ********ed up that you don't even abide by them. Perhaps you should just leave us alone for a change and allow us to live our lives. Deal? I thought not.

 

While I agree with your overall sentiment on not being judgy, I still think it's good to let heteros know gay people's POV on things that affect them directly. Like white people with race. We can sympathize to a great extent but we don't live it day-to-day. There's a wide gulf of understanding for people who will never get booted out of a Starbucks or pulled over all the time by cops or who won't be taunted/beat up for being gay.

 

There are actually ways to get our POVs without having to start offensive threads and post comments telling us how to live our lives. Shocking, I know. Honest questions, not dictates or "leading questions", are usually a better way to go about things.

Seriously, this thread is ********ed up - just look at the ********ing title. We might as well start a thread about how "black people are trying to take over white America" and pretend it was an honest attempt at reasoned dialogue. It clearly wouldn't be. And neither is this thread.

Think of it this way:
The hate-filled totalitarian Jewish lobby.
The hate-filled totalitarian Negro lobby.

Are those thread titles that invite honest discussion? Are they appropriate thread titles?

You want this gay person's POV? It's offensive.

@crazypete13

 

But, but... they don't have an agenda like you guys do!