Remind me when I said "you're an idiot." I said I don't go out on the field to listen to some idiot complain about throw ins. As for your above post, I guess I just figured you griping and complaining on here meant you did the same thing on the field. Just for your information, I'm a State referee working on becoming a National. I have never gotten better because of something a coach screamed at me or "told me in a calm manner about something" on a u11 game. Never. I have gotten better because coaches that followed the correct avenues got word out to the assignor who then put a mentor on a game to work with me. Think about your approach and maybe the referees in your area will improve.
Thanks for the constructive response rather than just calling me a name and collecting the resulting high-fives. I coach club soccer and I decline payment for doing so. I devote approximately 300 hours per year to coaching two teams, one currently U9 and one currently U11. I like to start with a group at U5 rec and take them all the way through. I do not cut players because it is on me if they don't improve enough to keep up with the pack. Instead, I redouble my efforts and try to help them catch up. I teach my kids that refs are to be respected and they are never to dissent against a ref's call and, if they do dissent, they are immediately subbed out and they get an earful from me. Rarely happens because the consequences are known in advance. I tell them that if the situation gets bad, I will be the one to raise the issue with the ref and I will do it calmly and politely, and if the ref carries on with bad calls, we just play on and give it our best. I tell them that even if the ref is letting the other team get away with fouls, we will not resort to intentional fouls and will follow the rules even if they are not being properly enforced. This makes it very frustrating when my little rule-followers are getting hard-done by a ref who seems hell bent on disregarding the LOTG. Despite the fact that probably 75% of our games are reffed by officials who blatantly either do no know or do not enforce the LOTG, I only speak up about the reffing in maybe 1 out of 10 games (roughly once per season). The three or four examples I've given in this thread are from my 8 years of coaching and probably constitute half or more of the instances that have ever occurred. You ask me to walk a mile in your shoes and ref a game, and that's a fair request. I would request, in turn, that you coach a team that is being reffed by an adult who is utterly incompetent and does not know or does not enforce the LOTG, even when they directly impact the score, and you see if you can keep your mouth closed, not just for that one game, but for hundreds of games on end.
The distinction you are drawing between directly calling me an idiot and saying that someone who did what I did is an idiot, is not compelling. If you didn't mean to call me an idiot, or wish you could take it back, the social norm is to apologize, not to pretend like you didn't do what you did. My goal in the limited times I've spoken up about refereeing in-game really isn't to help the referee improve overall, and I agree that it is an ineffective means of doing so. In the throw in example, I was really trying to get the ref to start calling illegal throws in that very game because the illegal throws were literally ruining the game and my players were getting very frustrated and feeling helpless, as was I, truth be told. The other example I gave above, from this past weekend, where I asked the ref to give the other team a verbal warning about reckless tackles was out of a genuine fear that my player was going to be severely injured, not because I thought I was going to make a lasting impact on how the ref called games from that point forward. I am reaching the point where I am so frustrated with the reffing in my area that I'm starting to think about how to change it. I've only ever reported three refs to the league, two of which were actually for excellent refereeing. I have tended to view reporting a ref to be some form of tattling and I have thought in the past that it was kind of an underhanded way of leveling a complaint. I'm learning from this thread that refs (at least the ones here) prefer to be reported than to be talked to by a coach, which is a little surprising, but I'm open to learning new things.
Crux of your complaint is here, yes? Unless the local rules of competition prohibit them, slide tackles even from behind are not by themselves fouls. It is possible to execute a slide tackle that results in the attacker tripping over the defender's legs without it being a foul on the defender. In your opinion they were dangerous fouls, in his they were not. There could be a number of reasons for this other than simple incompetence. Since he is wearing the referee badge, it's his opinion that counts. Asking him to call fouls where he doesn't believe there are any is telling him how to do his job. Asking him to tell players to stop doing something that is not against the laws is telling him how to do his job. You felt there were calls that he should have made but didn't, and may very well have been correct - we have all worked with other referees that didn't call fouls that we felt should be called. OTOH it is more common that we have to deal with coaches that think fouls should be called when they should not, do not understand the concept of trifling, and think that yelling at the referee during the game is the correct course of action (which the best youth coaches never do), and so far nothing you have posted has been very convincing that you are not one of those coaches. The responses you are getting should not be surprising.
Had you read my posts you would know that the ref in the sliding example called the fouls. I was asking for a warning rather than just calling the fouls because calling the fouls was not making it stop. When I spoke with him at halftime, as I explained above, he revealed that he does not believe that issuing warnings is in his job description and all he intended to do was call the fouls. We disagreed on that point, but I let it go after that conversation. The other team kept it up in the second half and he ended up issuing a red card on a DOGSO foul from behind in the second half. Luckily my player wasn't seriously injured. No thanks to the ref.
"Third one, takes out both of my players legs, is not called at all." "I said "Sir, these slides are very dangerous. Can you please call the foul and warn them to stop sliding from behind?"" ?
dcole, I applaud you for taking a deep breath on the last few posts and trying to get your point across in a more constructive manner. I also applaud you for teaching and mentoring young players on your own time. I tried being a coach once and I wasn't very good at it, but I do consider myself to be a decent referee. As you yourself have pointed out, complaining about a referee on the field is not the most constructive way to get your point across. Going through the ranks like assignors or league officials it the best way to potentially correct the behavior or lack of professionalism on the pitch. It may not happen overnight or as djmtxref mentioned there might be a other circumstances like a good old boy network that won't change until new blood comes in and replaces them. We all, even as referees, have seen "that guy" that is set in his ways and won't change the way he calls a game even if its shown to him in black and white. Additionally, try to join the dark side, you may actually enjoy it and make some new friends in the process.
Same player was slid five times from behind. Four of them were called (although one was overridden by advantage). The one that was not called was the worst of the bunch. Defender didn't come close to getting the ball and simply took both legs out from under the player. I have no real idea why he didn't call the foul. Certainly wasn't advantage. Maybe he figured he'd already called the same foul a couple minutes before and didn't want to call it again, I really don't know. It was as clear and as violent of a foul as I've seen in years. Yes, I asked the ref to call that a foul and to issue a warning. But there was no principled basis that possibly could have been behind the non-call. Why do you guys always assume that I must be wrong about whether the call was a bad one? Seems like most here don't think it's even relevant anyway. I shouldn't say anything to the ref no matter how bad the calls are and how dangerous things are getting on the field for my 10 year olds. Right?
Tried to answer that one for you. It won't help, that's what people are trying to tell you. If the officiating is truly sub-par let the club know how you feel - if others feel that way too they can do something about it. If you feel things are really dangerous the responsible thing to do is pull your team. It's been done.
I have had coaches freak out about something I didn't call a foul, so my apologies if I don't believe it was "the most clear and violent of a foul you have seen in years." I have had coaches freak out about a non offside call when the player was a few yards onside. Coaches tend to think they can see the best from their spot on the touch line, when in reality, things look different from the center of the pitch or to the referee who is actually looking at the offside line when the ball is played. Sure, you may have been right in this instance. Maybe it was a clear and violent foul that was just missed. It happens. But like I said, I have never improved by listening to a coach complain or tell me something was wrong that I did. Never have, never will. Take your griefs to the people that handle this kind of stuff and maybe it will improve. But coming into a "referee" forum and telling us we're all the same isn't the best way to get us on your side.
Hey Dcole, the very fact that you claim "...75% of our games are reffed by officials who blatantly either do no know or do not enforce the LOTG..." tells me all that I need to know about you. I'll save the scathing words and just say please go away -- you're part of the problem of poor refereeing, not the solution.
You are providing conflicting descriptions. Here you say this was only one game and in another post you say the referees are terrible in hundreds of games. Also here you say the opposition players were way behind where your defenders were, yet in another post you complain that a referee was calling offside on throw-ins. Decisions such as faults in throw-ins are considered to be trivial in games with 9- and 10-year old players. More concerning is the issue of dangerous tackles and player safety. This should be corrected, but using the appropriate channels. You have received a lot of advice from referees on this board about how to proceed to deal with all of this. If it is so bad as you say it is, why have you not got together with the other coaches and approached the league/club management about it? Or are the refs only lousy on your games? It would seem to me that if this is a systematic failure by this group of referees going back for several years and hundreds of games, something should have been done about it by now. Maybe you could ask that some assessors are sent out to look at these referees. However, since resources are usually tight, looking at referees in u-10 and u-11 games is not a high priority, unfortunately. It does concern the readers and participants on this board, most of whom are interested in, if not dedicated to, soccer refereeing and its improvement, if games are consistently being called incorrectly. They teach and assess and go out to mentor and look at new referees in order to help them improve. However, each and every one of us has come across at least one coach, but probably many more, who is a constant complainer, no matter what happens. As many have pointed out, this does no good, and in fact makes things worse for everyone. In other words it is unproductive. I know of one example where there was such a coach in a U-12 league and so the assignor asked a FIFA referee to work one of his matches. Before the game he approached the referee and commented that he hadn't seen him before, and judging by his different badge, he must be a new guy, and proceeded to tell him how he wanted the game called. The coach continued in his usual style for about 10-15 minutes, disputing decisions etc. none of which were incorrect. He went particularly ballistic when one of his players asked the referee if he could take the goal kick and the referee said yes so the kid took the kick. This kid was not the one who the coach wanted to take the kick and the coach accused the referee of interfering. A conversation then took place during which the referee told him that the LOTG states a goal kick can be taken by any player on the team. After this the yelling stopped, because apparently the assignor showed up and told the coach who the referee was and why he was there. Basically the coach realized he was making a fool of himself. Perhaps if you reveal your location, one or more of our readers who lives nearby could visit and see where the problem lies and perhaps be able to offer some assistance to the referees. But we all realize that it is difficult to change a tight group with ingrained habits. To go back to your situation. When I was a coach (adult level teams and I have a USSF coaching qualification) and we had a poor referee, my players would ask me to say something. Sometimes I did, but it never did any good. As long as the referee was not biased, instead, I instructed the players to take advantage of the poor refereeing pointing out that we would get our share of mistakes in our favor. In your case for example, if the referee was calling offside on throw-ins, you should have ran an offside trap on their throw-ins. If he was allowing longer throws due to jumping, (which I still doubt makes much of a difference in U-11 games) you should have had your players do the same. Having said that I do understand that this is not possible in regard to the unsafe tackles at this level. At the level I coached the players would realize what the referee was allowing and tackle accordingly. I wish you good luck and appreciate your contributions in coaching your teams for the players. But I do think a calibration of your approach would be beneficial to you. Oh, and also the modified Gadsden flag you use as your avatar does not help your perceived personality. PH
My descriptions are not conflicting. In some posts I have talked about refs calling offside on throw ins and in the post you quoted I was talking about a ref failing to call illegal throw ins. Two different situations, not two conflicting descriptions of the same event. And saying that there was one game where I complained about illegal throws and also stating that I've had bad refs in hundreds of games is similarly not conflicting. Regardless, among refs for U11 club soccer in my area, about 25% are good and 75% are pretty abysmal. Some of the abysmal ones are pretty nice people, but not good refs. Others seem like they are only out there to ruin everyone else's day and seem to enjoy pissing everyone off. Those are the ones that really need to go, but I don't think there's anyone else to do the job, so dealing with them is a necessary evil. Look, I'm a coach, but I readily acknowledge that a lot of coaches are total jerks that don't belong around kids. When people come on to the coaching forum and complain about a bad coach, the coaches over there don't jump down the parent's throat, call them names, tell them that they are lying or wrong and to leave the forum. We listen and try to give them some advice. I know I'm not wanted here and won't stick around any longer than it takes to respond to any further bashing (hint- if you REALLY want me to leave, stop ripping on me already; I only came back today because some new guy decided to pile on days after the fact), but I think the refs in this forum would be well advised to be a bit less touchy when people come here complaining about poor reffing.
Likewise if fans/parents or other refs come on here and complain about bad refs people try to help them understand. That's what happened here as well even for you from a lot of people who gave you advice. I bet if a ref went on the coach forum and said what jerks some coaches are, they would be met with some hostility. In some ways that is the nature of internet forums, although we usually try to keep things fairly civil here. But when a coach comes on here solely to bitch about referees, how bad they all are etc., and it is for some trivial things in U-11 for goodness sake, then starts making comments such as "were you picked on in high school so you became a bossy referee" and the like, this reminds many of us of the jerk we put up with on a weekly basis, hence the responses. You did it to yourself. PH
Fair enough. But on my way out the door I'll briefly respond the insinuation in the last post that I was the one who started the personal insults in this thread. It was actually the accuser who first resorted to name calling in this conversation, calling me a pain in the ass. See above for confirmation. Now, if everyone agrees to stand down, I'll be on my way.
I'm sorry guys but I can't resist. So you are THAT coach. The one who has to have the last word or you won't let it go.
I am absolutely still amazed that ANY coach thinks yelling at a referee during a game will get him anywhere in that match. And, if the coach posting about illegal throws at u11 had commented about it more than once in a match I was doing, I would walk over to him, beckon him away from his players, and tell him in no uncertain terms that there will be no more complaining about OS, foul throws, or fouls in this match. Period. And may I advise the coach to pick your poison. If you are going to complain about something in a match, make sure you get your money's worth. In order, I think I would list foul throws at the bottom bottom of anything to complain about. Next, but not very far off the bottom is OS which you can't call correctly from anywhere except in line with second to last defender. Save your breath for something that is important!
very tense: several years back, the home team had a very serious talented left defender. attacker, right in front of her coach on the touch line...pushed the ball a bit to far in front. Cassie kicks the ball into touch hard, attacker within inches of the defenders foot. the attacker tries to touch the ball with her toe. hooks her studs in the grass, screams in pain as her foot is damaged. I was with in 3 feet of this. coach yells at me, are you going to call that? I know what I saw, period-no foul. so while being attended to, another visiting player faces me up and says, are you going to card that? I said no. she said, you are terrible. I said, I am also a magician. she said, what? I said yes, I have a card which can make you disappear! Rod in AZ
Men's O-40 2nd division on Saturday. Contact near the touchline at midfield. Small contact at that. Ball goes out for a throw-in. A voice well behind me yells, "Ref, was that an advantage?" I said "Yeah, but I thought your guy could actually do something with it." Another guy from the same team starts laughing, loudly, like that was the funniest thing he'd heard all day. It was really trifling, but it was easier to just agree with them than trying to discuss the concept of trifling with them on the fly. This was the team that scored in the 10th minute when their forward, in an offside position, received the ball and scored, one on one with the keeper. "Offside, ref!" "He was on his own half of the field." "You mean, you can't be offside on your own half?" "That's right." "I never knew that." No cards, the players enjoyed the game and we only got a little wet.