The Ringer: Own Goal: The Inside Story Of How the Us Missed the World Cup

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Tony in Quakeland, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    The "us vs them mentaility" is from the people who are against dual nationals, prefer an American coach, and/or put MLS ahead of the USMNT. Taking it back to the "interaction" between MLS and Klinsmann... that would mean Garber and owners.
     
  2. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Abrupt topic shift to the bogeyman. Well done.
     
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  3. These were players that were initially overlooked and played in the second Dutch tier before being picked up by an Eredivisieclub and then it went fast towards the big leagues.
     
  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont follow or see a topic shift. This is thread about why we didnt qualify for the world cup. You brought up something about an "us vs them mentality"... I agreed that it is an issue with the people who do that, but I guess we disagree with who those people are.

    The people I attribute that characteristic to are the folks that I think are the most responsible for holding our culture and the USMNT back.

    I rarely see you add much to discussions on here. In this case, you have set the record straight that some players retired from international play before arriving in MLS. It doesnt change the point that many have been phased out, ignored, or had their coach lament their decision. It also doesnt change that even with all the hyping Fox did about MLS players at the world cup, there were very few who made an impact.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'm still confused as all i said relative to the dutch second tier was "Zelalem ....got a loan to 2nd div Dutch ... The Dutch do a decent job developing players " to a poster lamenting the path of GZ's career.

    oh well.
     
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  6. Ah, okay. Missed that. Maybe the poster got the message anyway;)
     
  7. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I'll make it up to you. Next time I see someone offering the slightest perceived criticism towards Klinsmann I'll take over your shift and parrot the usual crop of anti-MLS catchphrases you find so illuminating.
     
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  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Again, adding nothing to the conversation and attempting to misrepresent my views and the general discussion. It has been over 4 years since i've seen "the slightest perceived criticism towards Klinsmann". The argument has been that Klinsmann was the absolute worst person to lead the USMNT and every decision was criticized to see what could stick and misrepresenting facts was generally acceptable. There was plenty to criticize Klinsmann for but that wasn't enough as the goal was to get rid of him no matter what. MLS media was at the forefront of those attacks. Keeping Klinsmann may have been a mistake, but it is clear doing so and replacing him with Arena definitely was a very costly one.

    It is fine if you don't like what i have to say about MLS, but it isnt anti-MLS catchphrases. They are facts or opinions of how MLS isn't generally helping improve the USMNT. They have played a hand in improving things in some areas, are neutral in some areas and have actually been a detriment in others. The net impact is that our teams is no better than it was when the league started over 20 years ago. The biggest positive they have contributed to is increasing the depth of the pool.

    The problem with a lot of the views on here is that they are too extreme.... JK is the worst, LD is the best, MLS is a great league, etc. My views are generally pretty reasonable before posters like you try to twist them. JK had his positives and negatives and the road was rocky, but he added a lot of value in areas that are important based on our place in the game. LD is our most productive player ever and was our most talented player ever but also had weaknesses and couldnt be depended to bring his "A game". MLS has made great improvement over the years, but are a less than ideal location for our players to attempt to maximize their talent relative to many, many other options around the world.
     
  9. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    You get what you give. I simply corrected someone's false statement in attributing blame to MLS in regards to two specific players' international careers, and you went on a tangent, accusing me of being an insecure MLS fan who won't stick to what you deem the most important talking points. I even acknowledged the poster was right with one of their examples of MLS negatively impacting someone. Very insecure of me there, huh? After the corrections I offered my expanded thoughts on when players should retire, endorsing a view that I would like to see more Manchester United and Everton-level talent on our national team even if those players are over 30. I posted in good faith, but all you saw was someone not wanting MLS blamed for everything and so you went in attack mode.
     
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  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Your noble pursuit of accuracy is appreciated. I assume you will be busy correcting posters in many threads.

    That initial argument may have been to strong. Perhaps, the majority of international players signed by MLS have retired from their national team or were never good enough. Of the remaining players, some are no longer considered and the ones that are, play for countries like Ireland or Nigeria.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/12/26/ranking-top-10-designated-player-signings-mls-history
     
  11. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I bet you had a hard time keeping a straight face while you typed this...
     
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  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
  13. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    intermountain west
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To the hyper sensitive; the MLS is not to blame for anything but taking the USSF's money. Enjoy your league, I only wish it was all on your dime.
     
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  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Apologies for the delayed response.

    Are you

    A) making a semantic argument about the importance of specificity in language/examples or

    B) arguing that players moving from a major league to a minor one isn't strongly correlated with being phased out of top 20 national teams?
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #765 DHC1, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    I'll post this again to hopefully get a response or highlight the irony.
     
  16. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I think I explained myself pretty well in the post you quoted. You had a point, but used some sketchy examples as far as the timeline of reality matching up (unless you were referring to Everton and Manchester United as "the minor leagues", which I didn't think likely).
     
  17. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NANA AGYEMANG‏ @naagyeman6 20h20 hours ago

    Wilfried Mbape (father of Kylian Mbape) "I wanted my son to play for Cameron national team but the football federation charged certain amount that I didn't have but France didn't charge me a penny".This is the problem in Africa, money, money, money
     
  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I'll put that down as an argument over semantical specifics rather than one about substance then.
     
  19. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's pay to play at the extreme.
     
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  20. Poachin_Goalz

    Poachin_Goalz Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    Athens, GA.
    IMO there were other contributing factors to our qualification flameout. T and T is a small out of the way country. Their lone piece of international prestige and power was Jack Warner's fiefdom in FIFA. The US Justice Department is the primary force that took that away. T and T nationals don't see him as a criminal. They see the USA as a big bully stepping on the little guy. I knew in my heart that we would lose our next qually in T and T. When I reviewed the Hex schedule and noted that we played at T and T on the final match day, I said to myself "we have to take care of business early because qualification is essentially 9 games long this time."

    Unfortunately, we were a team in transition early in the 2018 cycle. For nearly a decade, our offense was reliant on the Dempsey / LD duo. Dempsey was aging and having health problems early in qualification. LD wasn't even available for an "Earnie Stewart 2002" role after JK detonated that relationship. Pulisic hadn't come into his own yet in the first half of the Hex. By the time Dempsey was relatively healthy and Pulisic was hitting is stride, it was already deep into the Hex and our margin of error was gone. It was just bad timing that when we really needed to make a fast start in qualifications, our offense was the most short handed it has been since 1986. Our only hope was team spirit and moral. That was apparently shattered within.
     
  21. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Just to point out but Ireland just beat the USA and Nigeria made the world cup again, so maybe you shouldn't use them as the lesser nations in your argument.
     
  22. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The USA doesn't produce enough quality players who can: control the ball, dribble with speed and control, pass under pressure, tackle, make the right decisions, etc. This is the fundamental problem. I think the root cause of this is a lack of quality coaching and overemphasis on winning vs development Add to all this, few players have any tactical acumen. In short, dumb coaches produce poor and dumb players. Little will be done about this problem, so progress will continue to be slow. On top of all of this there is the problem of pay-to-play and a general lack of athleticism at the top levels.
     
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  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    wow... I had to go back a couple of weeks to figure out what you are talking about. The context of the comment was on the tail end of discussion about teams phasing out players who went to lower leagues and a poster correcting that some had already retired, I was just summing up those posts and clarifying. Your comment is confusing as I wasn't talking about the US team at all and if there is a comparison to be made it would be with the players that were phased out or retired. In that case, Ireland and Nigeria are nowhere near the talents of Italy, Spain, Colombia, France, England, Germany, etc.

    I think the specific the specific players from those two countries were great signings for the league, performed well, and at least in Keane's case, improved those around him. Of course, that is a totally different topic.
     
  24. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    This is America!
    Development you are talking about is a flaw in the American sports structure when it comes to Europe. All of European sports have an Academy structure but in American sports it is down to HS and Colleges with the youth teams that are based on recruiting and money like it is college. You get the most talented players and win and that is how you get more. I mean Nick Saban now makes 8.5 mill and Urban meyer is the highest paid state employee of Ohio.

    This has changed a bit with the start of the MLS academies but for a long time in the USA, it was fancy youth program (pay for play) HS and ODP then get a 4 year scholarship to college.

    Winning is the most important thing and the Fed doesn't invest in coaching development so this is where we are. It is slowing being fixed but will take time to change the mindset.
     

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