The Ringer: Own Goal: The Inside Story Of How the Us Missed the World Cup

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Tony in Quakeland, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    @dark knight or @bungadiri is this really acceptable around here?
     
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  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Decent soccer players can play all over the field. If they can't adapt, then they aren't that good and should be at best role players for us and preferably not on our team. All of the best US players, which means not top international players, could easily play most positions.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    we did well in Brazil. Beating a team that had knocked us out the two previous cups that went on to tie Germany was a huge accomplishment.
     
  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Of course not, they started winning games with Lampard on the field.

    With Mix starting:
    W @ Chicago
    D vs. Toronto
    L vs. Orlando
    D vs. Chicago
    L @ Columbus
    W @ Portland
    D @ Toronto
    D vs. Orlando
    L vs. RSL

    With Lampard starting:
    W vs. Philadelphia
    W @ Seattle
    W vs. Red Bulls
    W @ New England
    L @ Kansas
    W @ Montreal
    L @ Red Bulls
    W vs. Colorado
    D @ San Jose
    D @ Columbus
    W vs. Galaxy
    L @ Orlando
    W vs. DC
    L @ New England

    and the game after Lampard got injured but they brought in the Colombian Mendoza, because by then Mix wasn't even making the bench.

    So, with Mix = 10 out of 27 points = 37%
    With Lampard = 26 out of 42 points = 62%

    And that's why Lampard benched Mix.

    If Mix were as good as some people here think, he wouldn't be languishing in a league even weaker than MLS, no?
     
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  6. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Like I said. You think Mix was going to play over Lampard? Im aware Lampard is a better player.

    By what fraction the Swedish league is worse than the MLS is debatable.

    I think it was pretty obvious Pirlo and Lampard were not going to be around long. It may have been worth it to see what may have happened later down the road in this case.

    I thought the objective was for MLS to try to promote and play USA players. Mix isnt a superstar but he has some creativity.
     
  7. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    Well. I personally think the want to offload his contract played a role too. Not just simply footballing reasons.

    I guess its just as simple as hes just garbage for some. Wonder how Mix would have played in Trinidad:)
     
  8. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    And that's where it should end.

    X > Y, team gets more points with X, then Y does not play.

    Everything else is secondary, conspiracy theories.
     
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  9. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
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  10. Tony in Quakeland

    Jan 27, 2003
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course they adopt - with training, preparation and tactical instruction. That is not what happened under Jk, where guys said they’d show up to games with no idea about the game plan or their role.
     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    No! You can throw quality players on the field and they will perform. The basics of the game are quite simple. The idea that players need to be directed is naive It is obviously usually better to have everyone on the same page, but the lack of that instruction is completely overblown around here.
     
  12. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    Is that an exercise in self-parody?
     
  13. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bravo, Bsky22! No one can do The Jurgen quite like you,
     
  14. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    I demand that we play a complicated, difficult, aesthetically pleasing style of play but I refuse to learn what it takes or hold others accountable for even trying to do the hard work necessary.
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It has nothing to do with Juergen, it is just soccer. Do Pogba or Kante meltdown if they get pushed high up the field or out wide? I dont think so. Mbappe can play wide or centrally or could drop back into the midfield. Yesterday didnt tell me that Adams and McKennie were played out of position, but they need to improve in those tighter spaces... which isnt surprising given their age and experience.

    Again, our top players and top players around the world can play and usually have played multiple positions effectively. We dont need sophisticated tactics until we have players that understand how to play the game. It has been a problem for sometime that our players from youth on up are over directed and dont learn how to solve problems on their own.
     
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  16. Tony in Quakeland

    Jan 27, 2003
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    “Starting in goal for Agentina, Lionel Messi...”
     
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  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    This place wouldn't be the same without bsky.
     
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  18. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup, that's 100% Jurgen.
    The problem with actually believing that the above is true is that it reduces a team's success purely to one of the talent on the field. That really explains how Greece and Portugal won the EuroCup, or Iceland qualified over Holland, or Costa Rica made it to the WC quarterfinals, or how Germany managed to shellack Brazil by 7-1 , or how New Zealand managed to not lose a game in its group round, a group that included France. Nevermind how a Leicester or Atletico Madrid managed to play out a season ahead of a number of more highly talented sides.
    Each and every day, in League and Cup and International play, teams of modest talent- guided by the instructions and training of an intelligent manager- defeat teams of significantly superior talent chunked out there by a clueless or slothful guy who says "hey, just play. How hard can it be? It's just soccer/football/futbol....blah blah blah"
     
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  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Please dont cut and paste two separate posts together to distort my comments.

    Your guys inability to think about anything other than great and horrible really inhibits your ability to understand simple concepts. The part about being on the same was to acknowledge that there is obvious value and also to try to avoid a discussion about JK. He had his strengths and weaknesses as a coach and one of his weaknesses was he is not a strong tactician. Let's just leave it at that if you guys are capable of letting it go.

    I'd much rather be Brazila, Argentina, Germany, Holland, Belgium, France, etc than Greece or Iceland. That is why I think our focus should be on how we develop players to get to that level, instead of how do we get the most out of average players. We are a young soccer nation and should be focusing on developing rather than winning by eeking out the most from our players. If that is what you want to do then see if you can bring back Bora and we just focus defending.

    Id select our coaches now based on their ability to teach the game and interest in working with young players. Once we develop talent then we can worry about what the right style is and who is the best coach to implement it to compete at the world cup.

    The problem with all the examples of teams that had runs is that they revert back to their previous level. What has Greece done since 2004? Leicester is back to being a mid table team. We had our run in 2002 and then bombed out when teams didnt take us for granted,
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    An absurd example that shows an unwillingness to engage in a real discussion. Im sure it wont move the dialogue anywhere, but let me give a try anyway.

    Let's take your guys beloved idol. Let's say LD is still in his prime and is motivated yesterday and we had a game we needed to win. Would you have played him at wing back over Moore or Robinson or even replace Trapp with him? I know I would. I'd replace any of the players on the field with him except the 3 backs and Steffen.

    If I were a NYRB fan I'd take TH14 from a few years over just about any player on the current squad in the same way. Id like all our CBs to be able to play out wide or dmid or even forward. I think Adams has benefited greatly from playing centrally and wide and it shows when playing either position. Two of our best central mids spent time playing outside back. Lahm went from an outside back to a dmid. Heck, I'd like Steffen to be able to play somewhere on the field to help him be comfortable with the ball at his feet and understand what it is like to receive various balls with different types of pressure in different areas. All of that would help him greatly improve his distribution.
     
  21. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Spoken like someone who truly wants to engage in reasoned discussion.
     
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  22. Tony in Quakeland

    Jan 27, 2003
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, let’s engage, and let’s start by making it clear what we are talking about. We are not talking about youth soccer or some pub league somewhere. We are not talking about transitioning someone from one regular position to another. We are not talking about a training exercise or an experiment designed to give a player some new insight into their original role.

    We are talking about at the highest levels of competition – where a delay of a split second can be disastrous - moving a player into a role he’s never played without preparation or a tactical plan.

    Now let’s consider your examples:

    If I were a NYRB fan I'd take TH14 from a few years over just about any player on the current squad in the same way

    Okay, so one of the handful of the greatest players of his era, Arsenal’s all-time best and one of France’s top five would be better than say, Roy Miller or Eric Alexander somehow proves your point? Seriously? That is your answer to my argument that sticking Omar Gonzales into defensive mid where has to make plays in space instead of playing in connection to a CB partner on the backline shouldn’t matter? Because one of the sports all-time greatest athletes could do it, so should everyone else? It’s mindboggling that you think this is a point.

    Let's say LD is still in his prime and is motivated yesterday and we had a game we needed to win. Would you have played him at wing back over Moore or Robinson or even replace Trapp with him? I know I would. I'd replace any of the players on the field with him except the 3 backs and Steffen.”

    Donovan could have played anywhere on the field and as midfielder who did incredible amounts of defensive work functioned in a similar way to a wingback. If he had trained at almost any role, he would have been the best American player to play it. As it was, Bruce Arena once said (circa 2007) the problem with Donovan is that he’s your best forward and your best midfielder. (Which suggests, by the way, that positions matter if you want to maximize the value of a player’s talent.)

    But once again, this is close to your Henry is better than the other Red Bull players example. Donovan was named man of the match by the Guardian after the US – Italy 2006 match who described him as “the most technically accomplished performer on the pitch.” Italy won the world cup that year. Yet it was Donovan who outclassed them in that game. Once again you use the example of the extraordinary to argue that the ordinary can do the same.

    But here’s my favorite part: you state that you’d have used him anywhere yesterday but “except the 3 backs and Steffen”. You are conceding your point in your very first example. If he can’t play center back than it must be attributes necessary for specific positions. Therefore not everyone can play every where

    Lahm went from an outside back to a dmid.”

    Yeah, and? Nothing about this example has the slightest bearing on the Portugal debacle I was describing or Klinsmann’s approach. Nothing. Why? First of all, once again you are using the example of the extraordinary to make claims about the ordinary. Lahm – who hated JK can denounced his lack of tactical preparation, something that undermines your arguments – was one of the smartest footballers ever to play.

    However, he didn’t just show up one day and Pep said, “Phil, go player over there now.” The transition was made over time, on the training ground and at times Lahm was moved back to right back for certain games. More to the point, Pep conceived of defensive mid in a new way, and needed someone of Lahm’s intelligence to pull it off. In addition, Lahm was getting older and a little slower – the new role was a better match for his shifting skill set. It was not a last minute, on the fly ill-prepared switch because anyone can play anywhere. It was as far from it as you can imagine and completely undermines the position you think it supports.

    Your other point that you’d have Steffen play in the field to improve his feet (I can only assume in training) has no bearing on the argument. Neither does Adams, a 19 year old whose ultimate position has not been clearly decided (and probably won’t be until he goes to Germany). The idea that playing inside and outside has helped him develop says nothing about how switching players without a plan or preparation can help or not hurt the team as it plays a specific game at the highest international levels. Once again, I find it hard to understand why you think it does.

    One of the great ironies here is that you are arguing this in defense of JK’s disregard for club positions and preparation, yet he never did anything like that as a player. He ran at people. His was brutal, swift, aggressive and a magnificent goal scorer. He was my favorite player at the time, a breathtaking attacking force. And it doesn’t diminish him in the least to say he was never asked to think about the game in any other context. He was never asked to show the kind of versatility he contemptuously demanded of mere mortals.

    There are scores and scores of examples about how disastrous these kinds of switches can be. Look at Gonzales confused in space and behind the play on the Portugal equalizer. Or, an non-JK example and one of my favorites, Eddie Lewis against the Czech Republic in 2006, a converted mid who streaked out of his LB position on the very first keeper distribution, leaving the space that was ruthlessly exploited for a goal.

    And there are thousands and thousands of comments from player about valuing preparation, tactical clarity, consistency and so on.

    Really, the best I can say about your argument is that you are unintentionally NOT responding to my point. You are claiming that position switches have been and can be successful, while ignoring that they take time and preparation.

    Claiming that an all-time great could do it while ignoring that we are not talking about ordinary players is disingenuous. And pointing out the potential benefit to an individual’s development of playing different positions again has no bearing on what I’m talking about. None.

    It’s a cliché but coaches don’t pick the best players, they pick the best team. They select guys because they bring certain attributes to certain parts of the field and they train them so that it is second nature to them. They react because it is drilled into them (is this even controversial?) Their roles are complex, and they need to manage multiple responsibilities and be aware of game states. They refine their ability to do that or they lose their job. And that is exactly what’s lost when you throw a guy into a new role on the fly.
     
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  23. That's the culture adopted from American football. Put on the pitch massive dumbos that need constant directions from the side what to do.
    Probably also the reason why in American football there's that insane amount of breaks of the game. 10 yards movement..interuption of the game and instructions by the coach.etc.
     
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  24. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    In general coaches that spend game time standing on the sidelines and yelling at players are bad coaches. At the young youth levels they may win a lot of games as the game is still slow enough for the kids to hear and then react but that style, the coach trying to play the game for the players, stops being effective at about the U14-U15 level.

    Quality coaching takes place at practice while the game is the time for watching preparing for halftime and, sometimes, making minor adjustments during the game.

    The players play and the coach coaches.
     
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  25. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The worst thing you can have is a coach who feels any smart player is a possible challenger to his authority.
     

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