My mind jumped to him too, but is this something that Chelsea habitually do with their loanees? Have Hull paid a big fee for Tomori, for instance?
Hull is an odd case because there's a relationship with Slutskiy, there and perhaps Chelsea are doing some favours, but generally yes. Stoke paid £7m to take Zouma for a season.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/06/football-biggest-issue-boys-rejected-academies The other side of the coin. Academies still need to do better by the kids whose odds of making it are very, very long.
How England U21s' Premier League minutes compare to Spain, Germany & Italy By Mandeep SangheraBBC Sport 03 October 2017 Football Share this with Email Share this with Facebook Share this with Twitter Share this with Whatsapp Image copyrightREX FEATURES Image captionEngland Under-21s lost on penalties to Germany at this summer's European Championship England's Under-21 players have played less top-flight football this season than their Spanish, German and Italian counterparts. BBC Sport analysed the minutes played by the squad members of the four 2017 European Under-21 Championship semi-finalists. And the data shows that England's Under-21s have played 49% of the total top-flight minutes of their Spanish opponents, 58% of the Germans and 67% of the Italians. It comes after a summer in which England's youth teams reached three out of four tournament finals - winning the Under-20 World Cup in South Korea and the European Under-19 Championship in Georgia, and losing on penalties to Spain in the Under-17 Euros. The under-21s lost to Germany in the semi-finals of their European Championship. Lack of top-flight time for English youngsters worries Southgate Aidy Boothroyd, who coached England U21s this summer, said the lack of top-flight minutes should not be used as an excuse - but admits it is a "killer stat". BBC Sport has collated the number of minutes played by England Under-21s, the under-20s and the under-19s in this summer's tournaments and compared them to their European rivals... England U21s England's squad members from this summer's European Championship have played the equivalent of almost 50 Premier League matches this season. The total they might have played is 161 full games. 88% of the Spain squad's game time this season has come in La Liga - the country's top flight. Of the other three semi-finalists, England's ratio is 47% , Germany's is 69%, Italy's is 76%. Everton goalkeeper Jordan Pickford and Swansea defender Alfie Mawson have played the most top-flight football - appearing for every minute (630) of their club's seven Premier League games. Germany beat Spain 1-0 in the final, despite many of their regular squad playing for the senior team in the Confederations Cup. England U20s Italy were the only other European side to reach the last four of the 2017 Under-20 World Cup - England beat them 3-1 in the semi-finals. Their squad has played more than double the top-flight minutes of England's so far this season, despite less game time overall. Only 9% of the England squad's game time is in the Premier League, compared to 41% in the Championship. Dominic Calvert-Lewin's Everton appearances this season make up 62% of the entire squad's total Premier League minutes. England U19s England beat Portugal 2-1 in the European Championship final this summer. Both squads have had very few top-flight minutes - 112 for England and 63 for Portugal. 97% of the Portuguese squad's game time this season has been in the second tier of their domestic league. The manager's viewpoint Image copyrightREX FEATURES Image captionAidy Boothroyd managed Watford, Colchester, Coventry and Northampton before moving to the FA Last season, England Under-21 squad players played just over 20,000 minutes of top-tier football - 17,000 fewer than their Spanish counterparts. Of the other semi-finalists, Germany's youngsters played just over 31,000 and Italy's just short of 30,000. Boothroyd managed England's under-19s and under-20s before taking the under-21s to the Euros this summer. He told BBC Sport: Fewer top-flight minutes impact on the "fine margins of winning elite tournaments"; Players can miss "big-game understanding and experience" if they are playing in the Championship instead of the Champions League; The globalisation of the Premier League has benefited coaches and players, but also limits young English players' game time; More young English players could move abroad as part of their "development". "It's a difficult one because our league is the best," said Boothroyd. "It doesn't necessarily help our players because with globalisation comes foreign owners, foreign managers and foreign players. They have helped us as coaches and our players, but the fact [England players] are stopped playing because of this is a problem." Some young English players, starved of opportunities at home, have moved abroad. This summer, Chris Willock left Arsenal for Benfica and Jadon Sancho departed Manchester City for Borussia Dortmund. "We may see a little bit more of that because our players are as good as anybody in the world," Boothroyd said. "Considering the summer we had, we have really put our flag in the ground and a marker about who we want to emulate and be better than. "If players get to a ceiling of development and think they can go and play more football somewhere else, it is good for them and should be part of their development. There comes a time when they have got to have a little real-life stuff where it counts." The player's viewpoint Image copyrightREX FEATURES Image captionFreddie Woodman played 14 times for Kilmarnock in the Scottish Premiership last season Newcastle United's Freddie Woodman was chosen as the tournament's best goalkeeper as England became under-20 world champions this summer. He saved a penalty in the final as England beat Venezuela 1-0. The 20-year-old has yet to make a Newcastle appearance, but has spent time on loan with Hartlepool, Crawley and Kilmarnock in the past three seasons. This year, he has been on the bench for the first team on three occasions. Woodman told BBC Sport: He wanted to go back out on loan this season but is not worried that a lack of top-flight game time will hinder his progress; More young English players will move abroad for opportunities; Current England youth teams have developed a "strong winning mentality". "I wanted to get game time, but the manager told me he wanted me to stay around the team and that will only improve me," Woodman said. "I want to test myself against the best. Fortunately I am able to do that with England and I really want to do that back at my club - but that is out of my control. "I told [Newcastle boss Rafael Benitez] at the beginning of the season that I want to push for number one - I feel I have the right to do that on the back of the World Cup and can hold my own if I do get called upon. "I really feel like the club see my progression, especially under this manager. He speaks to me daily, working on my game, always trying new things so it is just brilliant to have a manager of his calibre there supporting me and trying to make me a better goalkeeper. I'm just really waiting for my chance." Tim Sherwood, ex-Tottenham and Aston Villa manager "If I go to bed on a Friday night knowing I have a choice between a young lad who might give me nine and a half out of 10 - but might also give me a three out of 10 - and an experienced player who I know will give me no better or worse than a seven, I would always go for the experienced player. You simply cannot afford to take the chance." Case study: Chelsea & Andreas Christensen BBC Sport's Simon Stone Are minutes played worth the same across Europe? Getting game time in the Premier League is far harder than anywhere else - the top six harder still - and the Manchester clubs and Chelsea are at the peak of that. Chelsea would point to Danish defender Andreas Christensen as an example of how they believe the development of young players should work. He signed in 2012, aged 15, won the FA Youth Cup in 2014, and made his first-team debut in October of the same year. In July 2015, he joined Bundesliga outfit Borussia Monchengladbach on a two-year loan. He became established in the first-team, playing against strikers such as Robert Lewandowski domestically, and Lionel Messi and Sergio Aguero in Europe So this summer, Chelsea knew exactly what Christensen was capable of and resisted Monchengladbach's attempts to sign him permanently. Against Manchester City on Saturday, the Dane made his ninth appearance of the season, five of which have been starts - and he is just one player Chelsea feel can emerge in that manner from their extensive youth development programme. Striker Tammy Abraham and midfielder Ruben Loftus-Cheek - on loan at Swansea and Crystal Palace respectively - are two the Premier League champions have hopes for. Defender Nathan Ake was another, but he opted to join Bournemouth for £20m in a permanent deal this summer instead. However, the loan system is not an exact science. Chelsea acknowledge their turnover of first-team managers has not helped the development of their youngsters - during Christensen's relatively short time at the club, there have been seven bosses. It means a majority of the players Chelsea loan out - 34 this season - are destined never to get close to the first-team squad, while others would just prefer to move on. Image copyrightREX FEATURES Image captionAndreas Christensen made 62 starts over two seasons with Borussia Moenchengladbach The Manchester City method The Premier League II - effectively an under-23 league - was described by Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola as uncompetitive. "The second teams in Spain, at Barcelona and Real Madrid, play in front of 40,000 people. In Italy or Germany they play with players who are 28, 29 or 30. Here they don't compete. They play with each other with small ages and no spectators," said the Spaniard. An EFL League idea to introduce B teams into a reformed 100-team professional structure was thrown out before it had got past the discussion stage, such was the weight of opinion against it. Even the revamped EFL Trophy, in which 16 Category A academy clubs are invited to compete, only made it into a second season because the Premier League substantially increased its contribution to the prize fund. Manchester City have gone another way - they have bought a Spanish club. Between them, City and Guardiola's brother, Pere, paid £6.5m to buy 88% of Catalan club Girona, who are competing in La Liga for the first time this season and boast five young City players. The intention was for it to be more but Patrick Roberts opted to spend a second season at Celtic, while Sancho left permanently for Dortmund. But as long as Guardiola remains in charge, Girona will be the preferred route of development for City's youngsters. Jermaine Jenas will examine the youth development in England on The Premier League Show at 22:00 BST on Thursday on BBC Two and the BBC Sport website.
100s of them do every years. Companies like Vertex Soccer have been set up for that exact reason. I think that article is pretty one sided and shows things in a worse light that they really are. In reality, players who are in academies till they're 18 and get released don't come out much worse than the average 18 yo who didn't play football and stayed at school. Obviously players are gutted about not making it, but so are normal kids with the pressure of exams or uni or struggling to find apprenticeships (being tossed off their apprenticeships when the company goes bust). Most academy dropouts find it pretty easy to make it to University fairly quickly or to earn cash on the side playing semi-pro when they get the same job as the majority of other 18 year olds can get,
I thought this was a really good and interesting read: FOOTBALL Why German clubs are desperate for English talent Oliver Kay speaks to players who have moved and those being the Bundesliga’s recruitment drive Oliver Kay, Chief Football Correspondent October 14 2017, 12:01am, The Times Sancho became the latest English youngster to join a Bundesliga clubTF-IMAGES/GETTY IMAGES Share Save They do a lot of number-crunching at Borussia Mönchengladbach. According to their sporting director Max Eberl, they use every available metric and statistic as they scout and scour Europe for the best young talent in Europe. “A lot of numbers,” he says in his office at Borussia-Park. “All the numbers that are possible today.” Those numbers have led Eberl and his colleagues to conclusions that are backed up every time they watch the England youth teams or indeed the Premier League’s competitions at under-23 and under-18 level. “We follow every English national game — under-16, under-17 and so on — and we know every top player in England,” he says. “They develop great players. That age group [born in] 2000 in England, you could take every player. It’s unbelievable. They will perhaps win the Under-17 World Cup in India this month. That age group of 1999-2000-2001, there are a lot of top English players. For me, they’re the best in the world in that age group.” Several English players have settled in well to life in the BundesligaTIMES COMPOSITE When Jadon Sancho, one of the stars of that England Under-17 team, left Manchester City for Borussia Dortmund this summer, it was the most eyecatching in a series of moves that have taken English youngsters to Bundesliga clubs. It began with Danny Collinge, formerly of Milton Keynes Dons, joining Stuttgart in 2014 and continued with Mandela Egbo’s move from Crystal Palace to Mönchengladbach a year later. This summer two England Under-20 players, Kaylen Hinds, 19, and Ryan Kent, 20, left Arsenal for Wolfsburg (permanently) and Liverpool for Freiburg (on loan) and a third, Reece Oxford, 18, joined Mönchengladbach on loan from West Ham United; Sancho, 17, has since been joined at Dortmund by Denzeil Boadu, 20, who was also at City. Some in positions of power at Premier League clubs may be inclined to call it a talent drain. If anything, it has been designed to end the drain that is already happening within English football, where the financial stakes are so high, the culture has become so risk-averse and there is so little patience to nurture young talent in the Premier League. Too many fine prospects have been lost in the system, their potential not just unfulfilled but forgotten entirely. In Germany, at least, there is a growing regard — and a growing appetite — for English talent. What is more, the attraction slowly appears to have become mutual. “They are developing great young players in England,” Eberl says, “but normally the player has no chance to be in the first XI or even the first 18 of a Premier League team. English clubs, they will buy another player. They have a top player in their academy, but they will buy another who is two years older and has played two years in the first team in France or somewhere else. Sometimes it looks like the transfer market is a competition in itself. They don’t look to their own academy. “For example, Chelsea have Andreas Christensen. They got him back this summer after a two-year development — the best possible development, Champions League development — with us. He played for us against [Pierre-Emerick] Aubameyang, [Robert] Lewandowski, [Sergio] Agüero, [Álvaro] Morata, [Gonzalo] Higuaín, the best strikers in the world, and did a great job. They got him back for nothing, but also they buy [Antonio] Rüdiger for nearly €40 million [about £34 million] from Roma. Rüdiger is an excellent player, as we know in Germany, but so is Christensen, their own player, who joined them at the age of 15. I am not criticising Chelsea — they do a great job — but this is just the way of it in England. “So what is the next step for these young players? We want to be able to say, ‘We can be the next step for you.’ Reece and Jadon could be the example for the next guys. And I am starting to feel it a lot because a lot of English agents called us and said, ‘Hey, our player wants to come and play in the Bundesliga.’ I feel that they begin to open their eyes away from the Premier League, yes, but to Europe and especially in Germany. This is what I feel from the conversations I have had with agents. They are open to bringing players to Germany.” One agent, involved in one of the above deals, describes it thus. “If you’re a first-year or second-year pro at a big Premier League club, are you even on the manager’s radar?” he says. “Depending on the club, they might have two or three senior internationals in your position in the first-team squad. They might have the same in the under-23s, the same in the under-18s, another two or three out on loan. When that manager needs a player for the first team, will he look to the under-23s or the under-18s or the guys who have been on loan? No. More often than not, he looks to the transfer market. In Germany the culture is different — there is a clear philosophy, a clear pathway, with every young player knowing he will get the best possible chance to develop. That’s why our young players are suddenly looking to Germany, whether it’s loans or permanent moves.” The theory is beyond question – particularly at clubs such as RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen, Freiburg, Wolfsburg, Mönchengladbach and Dortmund, where there is a strong emphasis on developing younger players. So far, though, those English players have made just one Bundesliga start between them. That came when Hinds, who spent the second half of last season on loan to Stevenage, was unexpectedly selected for Wolfsburg’s opening league game against Dortmund in August. Collinge and Egbo are respectively in their fourth and third season in Germany and neither has appeared in the Bundesliga, though at 19 and 20 respectively they are young enough to feel they have time on their side. Theirs was more of a long-term mission, aimed at developing through Germany’s B-team structure. Both are regularly in the Regionalliga, Germany’s regionalised fourth tier. It sounds like a long way off the Bundesliga, though Eberl speaks positively of Egbo’s progression at Mönchengladbach, where he has recently started to train with the first team and impressed in a friendly match against Duisburg. Encouragingly, Kent has made three Bundesliga appearances as a substitute for Freiburg, while Hinds was on the bench for Wolfsburg in their final match before the international break. So too was Sancho for Dortmund’s match away to Augsburg. He has since travelled to India for the Under-17 World Cup, where he has made a strong impression in England’s first two matches, and at 17 is regarded much as Christian Pulisic, the United States playmaker, was when he made his breakthrough at Dortmund two years ago. “Sancho is a huge talent,” Dortmund’s sporting director Michael Zorc said recently. “He’ll need time to settle in, but I’m convinced we’ll have a lot of fun with him in the next few years. We don’t only talk about developing talents. We give them playing time at a high level.” That is what Oxford is expecting at Mönchengladbach too. He is yet to kick a ball in the Bundesliga and there have been reports that West Ham will activate a clause to recall him in December. Eberl does not deny that Oxford has been frustrated, but he believes the youngster and West Ham would be making a mistake if his German experience is cut short. “Reece wants to play,” Eberl says. “He doesn’t want to wait. I have spoken to him. I said, ‘Reece, it takes two or three months. You have to adapt to German culture, to the Bundesliga, a different style of football.’ Now he is adapting to our training, our approach. For me, he is making great development. We have been able to tell him, ‘You are one short step away from playing. You’re 18. Yes, you played in West Ham’s first team in the Premier League two years ago, but you had a big injury and in the last year you had only five games at Reading. You decided on the right step — here with us — and we will bring you to the level because you will play here.’ “To me, it would make no sense for Reece to go back in December. The example for him is Christensen — not an English player, but another top, talented defender from a Premier League club. Andreas played two years here at the top level, made a huge improvement and is now playing for Chelsea. Reece can do the same — or he could stay in Germany if he wanted to. Yes, there is a clause that they could take him back in December if he plays too few games, but we hope to be able to show Reece and West Ham very soon that he can have a perfect development here this season.” Oxford is on loan to Mönchengladbach from West HamGETTY IMAGES For Egbo, as for Collinge at Stuttgart, it is a more gradual process, but the Mönchengladbach youngster has no regrets. “Absolutely not,” Egbo says. “I can say without any doubt at all it was the best move for me. It has been an experience I wouldn’t swap. It is taking a bit longer than I thought it would, I guess, but that’s not to say it’s not coming. The whole journey has been exactly that — a journey. It has been learning curve after learning curve after learning curve. It has been invaluable.” Egbo talks positively about the B-team experience in Germany — playing competitive football while, unlike a loan, remaining under his club’s tutelage — but it is the broader aspects of his development that convince him he is in the right place. Collinge moved to Germany in part because it allowed him the opportunity to study for an international baccalaureate. Egbo, too, feels that the move has broadened his mind as well as helping his development as a footballer. “Living away from home, in another country, you have to be so much more mature,” he says. “It has been great for me.” Where does he want to be in three years? Back in the Premier League? “My plan is to stay here for a long time and play as many Bundesliga games as possible,” Egbo says. “It has been two years and I know I haven’t got anything clear to show for it yet, but I’m more determined than ever. I came out here with a vision. I’ve started it and I’m determined to carry on with it. “Reece has probably got the same vision for himself — the same with Jadon and the others. I hope it pays off for all of us — including, obviously, the players in the Prem. I would love to see a load of English youngsters get 150 games over the next three years. I’m not saying, ‘The Prem is rubbish. Move out here to get games.’ I want everybody to succeed wherever they are. What is clear is that it’s hard to do that wherever you are, in whichever league or country, but I believe Germany is the best place for me. It looks like others are starting to feel the same.”
In some ways bundesliga is the closest to the prem in terms of style Lots of pace and direct football
GOAL: #SaintsFCU23s 6-2 #NUFC (James Ward-Prowse 90+2)What a finish! @Prowsey16 nets the sixth of the evening with a sublime free-kick 👏 pic.twitter.com/jysl568KLJ— Southampton FC (@SouthamptonFC) October 16, 2017 Seems like the only football he's getting these days is U23 football as doesn't seem to play much for the senior team.
Pochettino trusts Winks in Bernabeu. Conte whinges about not having enough players after offloading Abraham, Loftus-Cheek, Chalobah etc— Simon Austin (@sport_simon) October 18, 2017
Sheaf, McGuane, Willock, Nelson, Mount, AMN, Calvert-Lewin, Davies, Holgate all getting some varying levels of play tonight. Still not entirely sure why people see Davies as some passing midfielder that could help out senior side.
For anyone interested who hasn't already read it, Martin Samuel has a piece on English youth with the u17s particularly in mind: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...land-fans-learn-love-national-team-again.html
Good representation of English players on duty in the Leicester v Everton game, 5 for Leicester including Gray & Chillwell starting and 8 for Everton. I really hope Unsworth does well at Everton as might just send a message to others that actually playing English players might not be a bad thing, especially with the quality of kids coming through.
It's interesting reading some of these pieces praising individuals for the success of the youth teams after the U17 WC win. Trevor Brooking, Howard Wilkinson and Dan Ashworth are getting some pretty high praise. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. Obviously all of them have had roles and contributed in ways via the actions they have implemented within the roles they had or have. Most of this success is related to investment in St George's and a lot of very good work by the clubs. Maybe I'm too critical but I feel Brooking didn't do enough to get the structure of the youth set up correct when he was in his role. I'm sure Ashworth has his qualities that have helped him improve the set up in areas but you would have had to have been pretty awful in the role to screw it up considering the talent that was coming through and the facilities/resources you now had available. Is that wrong? I just remember being perplexed at the time about why we never had U15 teams when smaller nations with less resources had them. When you would ask the FA it would vague answers for why we didn't have them. Or questioning style of play issues that were riddled through the set up for years. We've made improvements but quite alot of them were merely correcting incompetence and we could still improve in that regard.
Former Manchester United academy coach Paul McGuinness has joined @FA as a National Coach Developer— Rob Harris (@RobHarris) October 30, 2017
Seven English starters for Arsenal tonight: Wilshere, Walcott, Nelson, J. Willock, Holding, Maitland-Niles, and, most surprisingly, Matt Macey.