The paucity of English opportunity thread

Discussion in 'England' started by wellno, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    This whole issue gets a bit messy imo, if they can’t agree a deal between the Government, FA and Premier League then post Brexit Clubs won’t be in a good situation if they want to buy players that aren’t full Internationals or if they are Internationals and play for a Country outside the top 30, it will be tough. I wouldn’t have thought that youth players would pass the criteria to get a working Visa in the UK either from what I understand.
     
  2. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    #627 TopBanana10, Nov 14, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    Do the FA have any leverage on this?
     
  3. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Supposedly, as any deals with the Government about waving work permits have to be agreed between the Government and the Governing body ( FA ) so in theory yeah they have some leverage to make a deal with the Premier League.
     
  4. ChristianSur

    ChristianSur Member+

    May 5, 2015
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    I look forward to watching them waste it.
     
  5. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    It’s inevitable isn’t it, you just know that’s what’s going to happen :(
     
  6. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Well Scudamore is on his way out of the door, so maybe he knows which way the wind is turning. Ultimately the Premier League are not in a position of power on this, so it's hard to imagine something never being done, even if it's not as soon as we'd like.
     
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  7. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Premier League clubs told to accept overseas quotas or face tougher limits
    Matt Hughes, Deputy Football Correspondent


    November 21 2018, 12:01am, The Times


    [​IMG]
    Chelsea's David Luiz is among those who could be affected if quotas were introducedIAN WALTON/PA
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    If Premier League clubs decline to introduce a limit of 13 overseas players in their squads after Brexit there will be a far more dramatic reduction in the number of imports allowed, the FA has warned. If no agreement is reached, the number of European players able to move here would drop by about two-thirds.

    Analysis by the FA has revealed that only about 35 per cent of the European players in the Premier League would have been eligible for a work permit if the governing body endorsement criteria had been applied to them — as it is with non-EU players. This will be the default position if there is no agreement over a new immigration policy after 2021.

    The FA’s proposal to increase the quota of homegrown players in each 25-man squad from eight to 12 has encountered opposition from the Premier League but the governing body is determined to push ahead and claims that the alternative would be far worse for the clubs. It believes that it has produced a policy to benefit all parties and intends to pursue it even if Brexit is delayed or reversed by a second referendum. The FA has warned clubs that there is no room for negotiation over the size of the quota.

    The governing body’s starting point is a desire to maintain the number of overseas players in the Premier League at the present level of 260 after Brexit, to maintain opportunities for English players that, averaged across the 20 clubs, has led it to arrive at the figure of 13. In return it is willing to support the creation of a fully open market for Premier League clubs to sign any foreign players they want from outside the European Economic Area (EEA), which is limited at present by a strict work-permit criteria set by the Home Office.

    The FA has been asked by the government to work with the Premier League to come up with a new post-Brexit immigration system for footballers so the support of the clubs is needed to introduce the increased homegrown quota. The governing body is in a strong negotiating position however, because if it fails to reach an agreement or the UK leaves the European Union without a Brexit deal then the strict immigration criteria applied to non-EU players would automatically be applied to those from Europe, thus limiting the clubs’ access to talent. Of the 184 EEA players in the Premier League, only 38 would have met the criteria for a governing body endorsement, with another 26 likely to have been admitted on appeal.

    Another key argument is the FA’s finding that limiting clubs to 13 overseas players would have little immediate impact, as few of them have 17 foreign players at the moment and those managers with the maximum number do not pick them all. The FA analysis shows that limiting clubs to their 13 most-used overseas players last season would have prevented only 42 appearances in more than 10,000 in the Premier League, of which only 24 were starts.

    [​IMG]
    The FA has made it clear to the clubs that it is not seeking to reduce the number of foreigners in the Premier League but simply to maintain existing levels, pointing out that if every club filled the present allocation of foreign players there would be 340 in the top flight rather than 260. The number of foreign players in the Premier League has increased every year since the homegrown quota of eight was introduced in 2011, leading to a situation where only 29 per cent of players who started the last round of Premier League matches were qualified to play for England.

    The FA is anxious to stop this trend continuing and it argues that it inevitably will do if the homegrown quota is not increased. The FA is also discussing other ideas to improve opportunities for English players, such as limiting loan transfers in the Premier League to homegrown players, but has yet to produce any concrete proposals.

    The government has made it clear that if the FA, the Premier League and the EFL can agree a deal, then the new rules will be approved. As with all Brexit changes, there will be a transition period, meaning that they would not be introduced until the end of the 2020-21 season, while all EU players now with Premier League clubs would be permitted to stay indefinitely.
     
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  8. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    This seems a very sensible approach from the EU, which coupled up with the transfer ban of U18s would be a help.

    Ultimately it isn't going to make much difference initially, but it will stop the problem getting worse over the next few years.
     
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  9. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    Our U18s being unable to go abroad isn't great though.
     
  10. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    True, although if some of them have some form of EU citizenship then they will be able to carry on doing so.
     
  11. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
  12. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Not surprised obviously but I’m kind of confused by the stance of the Premier League, if they can’t strike up a deal with the FA surely it will be harder for them to sign non International players or even International players who haven’t reached the percentage level of appearances required to acquire a work permit after Brexit? Maybe the top teams think it won’t effect them much as they will go for the very best International players but surely it will effect the lower Prem sides, Championship and SPL teams.
     
  13. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    there's no need for them to accept any deal right now though. It's a negotiation. Who knows what happens with Brexit, let alone this single 'deal.'
     
  14. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    This whole Brexit thing is a giant mess

    The fact we were given the choice of potentially ruining our economy without any facts is a huge blunder from the torries

    English football won’t improve because of the quotas

    These kids are good due to intense foreign competition and foreign coaches
     
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  15. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Agree with the whole Brexit mess, hard not to tbh, lol

    The thing is, not much will change with regard to the quality of foreign players coming in, we will still have a big majority of top class foreign players. I’ve seen a lot of meltdowns on social media saying things like we will turn into the SPL which I think is a massive over exaggeration tbh. We might lose some foreign players just taking up Squad places and being taken by home grown players but I can’t think that losing players like Darmian, Zappacosta, Rojo, Romero, Eleny, Llorent etc is going to Diminish quality of our league tbh.
     
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  16. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    I really hope things stay as they are tbh and then we can tinker with the actual things that might help but we can control.
     
  17. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Latest from the Times:

    Premier League clubs unwilling to bow to FA’s quota demands after Brexit
    Matt Hughes, Deputy Football Correspondent


    November 21 2018, 5:00pm, The Times


    [​IMG]
    The FA is willing to smooth over the work permit process for players from EU counties after Brexit if the Premier League agrees to reduced numbers of foreign-born playersPAUL ELLIS/AFP/GETTY IMAGES
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    The Premier League has dismissed the FA’s threat that it could lose access to up to two-thirds of the foreign players in the top flight if they fail to agree to increased home-grown player quotas after Brexit.

    The 20 Premier League clubs are confident that the government would not permit such dramatic damage to a product which raises over £3 billion in tax receipts every year and attracts investment from 189 countries, and insist that the status quo could be maintained even after a no-deal Brexit.

    The FA wants to impose a limit of 13 overseas players in the 25-man Premier League squads after Brexit, with The Times today reporting its research showing that that only 35 per cent of the European players in the Premier League would be eligible for a work permit if the existing Governing Body Endorsement criteria was applied to them in addition to non-EU players, but the clubs are adamant that such analysis is flawed.

    The clubs have also been speaking to the government and have not received any confirmation that applying GBE criteria to EU players after Brexit would be the default position, as suggested by the FA.

    The government has asked the FA, Premier League and EFL to come up with a joint proposal for a post-Brexit immigration policy, but the clubs are adamant that that they will not be pushed into accepting a more stringent quota system by the governing body. Premier League clubs are limited to having 17 overseas players over the age of 21 in their squads, and while they may be willing to accept a reduction to 15 they argue that a limit of 13 would be too restrictive.

    It is unclear what would happen after Brexit if the FA and the clubs fail to reach an agreement, but the Premier League is confident that defaulting to GBE rules for all European players is not a plausible outcome. Other options include an extended transition period — due to last until 2021 in any case — while an agreement is reached.

    The Premier League is also bemused by the FA’s desire to limit overseas players to 13 per squad even if Brexit is reversed by a second referendum, as in that case restricting the access of European players further would breach European Union law.
     
  18. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    So, on the other hand, The Premier League are basically hoping the Government keep things the same as the Premier League helps generate £3 Billion in revenue and will gamble on that front until the very end no doubt. That might swing it in there favour as I’m sure the Government would rather have the 3 Billion in tax revenues than harm the product.
     
  19. wellno

    wellno Member+

    Jul 31, 2016
    Government revenue is £650bn, the Premier League generates less than 0.5% of that. A significant proportion of that comes from the captive home market (I don't think many English people will start watching Italian football instead if their team has 4 less foreigners on the squad). I don't think the drop from oversees would be that big either - Americans aren't tuning in to watch Davide Zappacosta warm Chelsea's bench.

    So it would be a (exaggerated) risk of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction fall in revenue at a time when the UK government would have much bigger problems. I can't see them giving a shit.
     
  20. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    I’m not disagreeing with you but please elaborate on this point.
     
  21. JRSG

    JRSG Member+

    Mar 25, 2015
    Club:
    Torquay United
    One reason that i'm against massive change, is i'm interested to see what the impact of Loftus-Cheek, Solanke + KWP stalling has on future decisions. I think the problem is our culture and our idea of what the normal pathway is and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing if the young players come through knowing they have no chance of coming through at a top club. The younger players seem to be pushing for moves right now and i'd like to see how that plays out over the next few years if everything stayed the same. Our biggest asset over anyone else is how much money the PL makes, I don't want to lose that edge.

    I think the U23 league is just a big white elephant. It gives sides a place to hoard players and keep on players who they don't want or need. Reduce the age on it. I'd go U20 but U21 is probably more realistic. This will streamline the whole system, U20 football will be a higher standard so the games won't be meaningless because there's more talent concentrated in there.

    Then change the loan system. Make it hard for clubs to loan out over 21 players or non-homegrown players. This will make them more likely to sign players in the first place. Plus, it'd stop sides from giving so many players long contracts knowing they can just loan them out forever.

    Happy to cut foreign players from 17 to 15. I think 13 is too ambitious. I look at our U21s and it's the players who are kept around to be HG players that are struggling the most as it is. Guys like Woodman, Solanke, KWP, Holgate, RLC + Lookman are the worrying ones.

    I'm also a bit worried about the work permit rules impacting the PL product and the ability of our players to go abroad.

    TLDR - I'm more interested in how we change the culture, behaviour and idea of what the pathways should even be, then changing a rule just so things look a little better on paper.
     
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  22. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    #647 TopBanana10, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  23. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    A pretty thorough analysis to be fair. Hopefully, one or more of those changes will be considered.
     
  24. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    Not sure about that, Dyche is very much in the Pulis mold (though a better manager in general), he values experience highly. Very few players under 25 under him for Burnley. Unless CHO was to hit the ground running it'd be easy to see him quickly dropped, or else only used as an impact player in the first place.

    In general I think aiming for a premier league loan is a bit ambitious at this stage, there's not many clubs who'll play teenagers in the premier, and even less who'll start them. Relegation threatened clubs in general can be pretty harsh environments for young loan players where oftentimes if your impac isn't instant you are quickly disposed of. I can think of plenty of mid-season loans to those kind of clubs that turned sour, I can't think of many successes however.
     
  25. TopBanana10

    TopBanana10 Member+

    Millwall
    England
    Sep 8, 2018
    I’m probably being overly optimistic. I just think being at Burnley would beat his current predicament. A chance to get his foot in the door at a club with a thinner squad.
     

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