The Official Marc Pelosi thread

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by Goodsport, Jul 17, 2015.

  1. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    There's an in-between if you don't know how healthy he is or will remain. Maybe he feels good enough to start playing next year but what happens if it flairs up again? Problem is, the universe does not always fall nearly into yes / no answers, and it doesn't care how much we'd like it to.
     
    markmcf8 repped this.
  2. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
  3. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a John Doyle approach.
     
  4. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Well you can make a call one way or another but there's no way you can believe he's "healthy" with no reservations at this point. There are no miracles. So you either live with the uncertainty or you kick him to the curb.
     
  5. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not about a guarantee because something new could always happen. But the doctors should know by now his whether he's a good a investment or not.
     
  6. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    The doctors are not all-knowing. They can make a best guess but it's not going to be black or white. Just based on the fact that he has surgery for the condition in Feb, never played, and then had surgery for the same condition in Sept, I'd say the prognosis is not good. How can it be that it's all better now, and that someone would know that definitively?
     
  7. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.boneandjoint.org.uk/content/focus/patellar-tendinosis
    • This 2011 UK article says that jumper's knee has a tendency to become chronic and, in elite athletes, the incidence of having to retire from their sport is as high as 53%.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160906145606.htm
    • A 2016 analysis of NFL players over a 10-year period showed a Return to Play (RTP) rate of only 50% after patellar tendon repair, which was significantly lower compared to all other procedures analyzed.
    • Athletes who had surgery to repair the patellar tendon, the tendon connecting the knee bone to the shin, fared the worst with respect to the RTP rate, career length after surgery, games played and performance at one year, two years and three years after surgery.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877056809001418
    • OTOH, this 2009 French study reported an 87% success rate with 63% returning to their sport (mostly soccer) to play at the same level.
    These studies indicated 6-12-18 months recovery period. So Pelosi's long rehab might not be unusual. However, it seems his odds are about 50:50.
     
  8. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    His contract is worth less than Lenhart's percentage-wise, I would bet, so they aren't identical situations. Pelosi is considerably younger than Lenhart was, as well, which changes things. I'm not sold that giving him a contract was the best move, but I don't think the risk is especially high. There are a lot of free roster spots now that weren't there in 2016.
     
    bsman repped this.
  9. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Once again, plenty of potential upside to a Pelosi contract, I would imagine that the number we are talking about is sufficiently trivial that it's not a big hit on the cap, and I'm not sure if he would be counted against the cap or if it would be a developmental contract...
     
  10. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  11. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    These are both important points, especially that his contract might not count against the cap.

    However, JD was prone to making risky signings. I would hope that CL learned that too much risk is a bad thing. We have to approach roster decisions with an eye to how much risk we're taking on. Are we going to have a number of players on the roster recovering from injuries? Older and maybe slower? Too young and untried? What's the total risk we are taking on, and what is the cost of that risk. How many players on our roster and dependable, known quantities?

    Sure, I want us to take some risks, but mostly, we need guys we are pretty certain can be difference makers.

    I hope that Pelosi is OK, and that he can play for us this year, even if not right away. But I can't know just how much we are risking with this move.

    Go Quakes!!

    - Mark
     
  12. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yeah, I mean, every player is a risk. The less money they are paid, the lower the risk, generally. In terms of the Quakes, they have very rarely made big money risks. Emeghara was one that obviously didn't pay off. Lenhart was another that was avoidable but still undertaken (though that is based on salary percentage more than dollar amount), which was a clear mistake. Many of the others are a bit tougher to get truly angry about. Gorlitz was iffy given age, and was most likely avoidable.

    I know that some people were unhappy about Goodson, though I think that is more hindsight than working with knowledge at the time. The thing about "known quantities" is that it only goes so far. You usually spend more on guys who regularly contribute for that very reason. It's pretty easy to inflate the roster spending just with one or two guys, so they have to be mindful of that. In Pelosi's case, I think the risk from a roster and financial standpoint is low. He was already on the team's roster for 2016 and didn't play. They aren't signing him over someone else, if you look at it that way. Since Goodson and Stewart are off the books, there are two spots worth a fair amount of money freed up to spend on players expected to contribute day one.
     
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  13. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #288 JazzyJ, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
    Darren Huckerby
    Djalo
    Bobby Convey

    I don't know if I'd call them "big money" but they were the highest or one of the few highest paid players of their time on the Quakes, and all had significant injury history at the time of their signing. Huckerby was the marquee signing for the Quakes in 2008 and Convey was the marquee signing for the Quakes in 2009.

    All struggled with injuries BTW while playing for the Quakes. Convey played most of the time, but I don't think he was ever quite right physically. Djalo, well, he was a disaster in terms of lack of availability due to injuries. Hucks was good for one year and fell apart in the second.
     
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  14. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I think Djalo is the only one there that qualifies as a pretty high risk situation. He wasn't paid an incredible amount, but his lack of availability was a big issue. I'm not sure exactly how much the Quakes knew ahead of the signing, but I can see that as a big risk in the same vein as Lenhart (although Lenhart's was incredibly obvious and his history with the club indicated he would not be long for the pro soccer world).

    With regard to Huckerby and Convey, both played enough that I have a hard time seeing them being big issues from a financial risk standpoint. They were definitely questionable in terms of how much time they could give, but I think they about earned what they were paid, give or take a bit.

    The Quakes definitely have a history of signing players with questionable fitness, but not much of a history of way overspending on players who can't deliver. I implied that there were exceptions when I said they rarely made big financial risks.
     
  15. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure. Here are the factors to consider:
    • salary (and transfer fee if any)
    • roster spot (senior, GA, and so on)
    • injury history (remember Muller? Ring?)
    • age (yes age. Players need more recovery time as they get older. Each injury is more serious, and so on.)
    • do we have acceptable backups? Which is a risk reducer.
    I'm sure I'm missing some, but this is a good start.

    Go Quakes!!
    Fire Dom!!

    - Mark
     
  16. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Well they don't have much of a history of spending a lot on players in general :). I am actually OK with the Huckerby signing. They knew his time was coming to an end, but the contract was for only 2 years, and he at least made it through the 1st year OK.

    I watched Convey pretty carefully in 2009, and he was never close to the player that he was at Reading. You could see him really hobbling sometimes after a sequence. I don't think that was a good choice in terms of a player to build around. He was not that impactful except for in one glorious playoff game in NY. I think his salary was only at $250k or so. That seems relatively small now, but for back then, pre-DP era, much smaller cap, that was a significant amount.
     
  17. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Supposedly Convey had a terrible attitude and he thought he was better than he really was. Frank and John both brought him in and then they turned on him as well because he didn't live up top their hopes. I seem to remember he did well in 2010 just not in 09 or 2011..
     
  18. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yeah, it was a significant chunk, definitely. The rules were different and a salary of 250 a season was nothing to sneeze at with regard to the cap. 250k dollars for a player in 2009 was not a lot of money overall, though. Percentage wise, Convey's salary meant the rest of the roster had to be fit in without that, which was the biggest issue. But he was definitely not a financial risk in terms of the owners even noticing. So it depends a bit on how you look at it. I think he played well enough that the salary wasn't flushed down the toilet. I also think Yallop didn't have the team in any kind of shape to compete, so deciding where Convey fits in the timeline of bad Quakes moves is up to the individual. You could make a case he was a huge flop or that he was a decent success and both could be true at the same time.
     
  19. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Yeah, I don't think it's a secret that Convey didn't have a great attitude, but Doyle and Yallop struggled to put together something even resembling a team to start back into the league. He did manage to put in a 10 assist season on a terrible team in 2010, so I'd be willing to put at least as much blame on Yallop and Doyle as I would Convey.
     
  20. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    I'd have to say he was a disappointment. When he came to the team they actually thought he might play CAM. I remember we were debating about how good he'd be at it because supposedly he had limited vision in his left eye or something. Eventually he was moved out to left mid, and then finally left back, which he wasn't too pleased about. I think he might have also played forward a few times, to not much effect.
     
  21. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nonsense.

    Hucks was the highest paid player on the team, which means that he ate up a roster spot, and international spot, and a big bite of our very limited Salary Cap, and he was basically unavailable most of the '09 season. And when he did play in '09, he was a shadow of his '08 self.

    Djalo had a long history of serious injury in a short career. One or our more expensive players.

    Bobby Convey was coming off of a microfracture injury and he's legally blind in one eye. He was an enormous risk, but he did pay off, so good on us. Also, one of our most expensive players.

    Flash Gordon was walking wounded when we signed him. Were it not for our superior doctors he would never have played again. Acquired in a three for one trade. Not expensive at the time.

    Gorlitz was another one where we signed a guy to start for us, knowing that he had a history of serious injury, and then he missed basically the whole season. So we ended up playing Barklege, who wasn't very good, and Pintos, one of the very worst soccer players I have ever seen, but these dudes were supposed to be replacements for Beita. Fail! So this was risking a starting spot on a guy who might not be able to play at all. Hugely stupid. And we didn't have a quality backup either. And to compound the idiocy, we could have had Beita back there.

    ALM! Old, history of injury, long term contract, comparatively expensive. There was pain that just kept on giving.

    Tommy Muller, never played a minute for us.

    Brad Ring. Missed his whole rookie season. Eventually did play for us, but was never starter, and never really worth the risk. I'm happy for Brad that he's found a home with Indy Eleven. Still, he was a high risk for us, and the most charitable view is that he never really made it as a starter, though he teamed well with Croninja.

    I'm sure I'm missing some, because the number of injured players we've signed is absurdly long.

    Go Quakes!!

    - Mark
     
  22. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Easily.

    They brought him in to play the #10 spot for us. Then his teammates constantly played the ball over his head, because we just luvs us some long ball.

    Then they moved Convey to the left mid spot, which is probably where he belongs in any case. He played well for us there, and he combined well with Zaher. But we couldn't start Zaher over Ramiro (huge mistake that), so we brought Ramiro in, and played him at left mid and moved Convey to left back. So, a guy we brought on board to play offense, we moved to left back.

    We have no idea what to do with offensive players.

    No wonder he had a crappy attitude, you would have too.

    Go Quakes!!

    - Mark
     
  23. chris thebassplayer

    Feb 18, 2014
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Anything associated with JD is old news. What the Quakes do going forward with Leitch calling the shots shouldn't be compared to historic dumbass moves. I have to believe if the Quakes are offering Pelosi a contract it is structured in a way to not damage the club.

    The dawning of the post JD era...
     
  24. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Dominic is still associated with Doyle. If it wasn't for his relationship with JD, Kinnear wouldn't have ever been named coach of the team.
     
  25. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Let's hope that the post-Doyle era brings better decisions but I think giving Pelosi a little contract to see if he can recover enough to play is no stroke of genius. I think any of us would probably make the same call. It is relatively low risk, assuming the amount is small, like $60k, and high reward - if he can play you've got a good young player on your roster for cheap. Now Doyle may have offered Pelosi a DP contract so maybe we are already coming out ahead. :)
     

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