The cultural and geographical distances are big factors too, I think. African players are usually fluent in at least one European language (which in turn makes it easier for them to pick up English), while most Korean players don't have that advantage. Also, Africa is geographically closer to Europe and Afro-European communities are more established than their Asian-European counterparts. I can't imagine being a Korean teenager like Son Heung Min and having to come of age in a place like Hamburg.
Yes, agreed, our players' language skills appear to be lacking. SHM seems to have picked up German far better than most of our KPAs. But in general, I imagine things are really rough for some of these guys who have to adjust to european play and impress managers who they can't understand and are probably pretty lonely to boot (NTH being a very strong example). Changing subjects a bit based on a bit of back and forth with Ji in the PCY thread, I keep hearing about this CKR European bias which messed things up. I don't see a strong argument for this... I think CKR had his favorite guys like KJW, LYR who aren't plying their trade in Europe, and KJC/JDW who he featured during the AC before they made their switch (well, I think KJC was in the process of doing so). And guys like SHM/NTH were barely played... I think NTH had two games where he started. And when he did put in korean players like that guy we had on right wing for a while there, it was pretty mediocre at best. As a non-expert in k/j league, who am I missing? KBK seems to be the only guy I know of, and everyone else are strikers where PCY was doing his job superbly. I'm not being confrontational, but if there is a boatload of mature talent, I'd like to know who they are and where they'd fit in. Without knowing these things, I'm erring on the fact that CKR was terrible at building a style of play for our players (taking LCY/KSY out of their game), relying on non-capable players like Hong Chul or putting people in incorrect positions (KJC). That plus his terrible people skills appear to be greater failings.
Most African players rely heavily on their inherent abilities. That's a fact. It's not because they're black. It's the lack of resources in that region that prevents them from developing their own talent. It's actually the same for the US with exception of very few players. My point is that we're never going to be able to emulate Africa's success (if you can even call it that) of overcoming poor management, because it's not likely that we'll churn out players with freak of nature attributes like Drogba, Essien and etc. That's because Barcelona and Ajax aren't the only two clubs with top class youth system. I've yet to see a country that came even close to contending for the World Cup with poor infrastructure. Can you name me one? The chances of this happening is as good as me winning the lottery this week, but let's just assume that the likes of Lee Chung-yong, Son Heung-min and Ki Sung-yong all develop into world class players. We would have our own version of golden generation for the next ten years or so, but that still doesn't make us a legitimate footballing country in the long run. Kagawa was already an established star at Cerezo Osaka who played over 100 games and scored over 50 goals at professional level. He's a product of Japanese youth development. I can't be bothered to look this up, but I think he played his youth football for a team that's operated by Barcelona. China doesn't have an organized system. If anything their domestic football is more corrupt than ours.
I'm not disagreeing. But if you think we had Drogba and Essien on our squad that we wouldn't be a favorite not to win the world cup but at least be competitive with all the secondary footballing nations and be favored to exit the group stage and maybe even a round further? Some of our guys are as fast as heck with low centers of gravity to boot. There's a place between being Spain or Brazil and being amongst the cannon fodder. If you think we're a good FA from becoming spain... well I have a bridge to sell to you. You don't think the success of one or more players will encourage scouts to look at our young guys and save them from a career in the j-league? My point has nothing to do with how Kagawa was created. The whole point is that if you have a world class player, scouts will look to buy similar talent, oftentimes looking a few levels lower to cheapen the cost. Lol. Indeed. My point is that you can't build a system overnight. It doesn't just take smart guys in the FA, it takes cultural changes.
We need a well run FA. We're not some African nation that can rely on a golden generation of footballers to give us a chance. In any case, the African squads are invariably unbalanced as only certain types of footballers are scouted by European clubs. And the infrastructure is just not there to churn generations of good squads. They tend to go through cycles of good and bad sides. And even when they're good, they usually fail at the World Cup, b/c there's a disconnect between the players and the management. The most successful countries are always the ones that have a well run FA in place. The Dutch should be nowhere near as powerful as they are given their population. But they have a singular footballing philosophy and infrastructure that their FA oversee to enable them to produce/manufacture a good base of players. And of those, a few superstars always emerge to tip the balance. The Germans always produce good sides, b/c the DFB invests and runs their league, clubs, academies properly. We have the money, and done a good job at developing the physical infrastructure through increased spending. But the KFA still has a long way to go in developing that solid cadre of players. JFA is better run. It's invested better. And it's enforced and developed its league better. Now, they have a better league. And they're starting to have a bigger pool of solid players at every position. We're falling behind b/c the KFA can't get their shit together. And a European manager will not solve our underlying problems. It'll be a patchwork job at best. It's like looking at the difference between a Honda Accord/Toyota Camry back in the 80s versus a Hyundai Sonata.
That seems broad and generalized. Are you sure you're not including those that have become nationalized or adopted by the Euros?
I'm not counting the French born, played for France U-20 but is now playing for some other country like BAK or Bassong... For example, Udinese goes to Ghana and picks out (successfully) similar types of players like Asamoah, Essien, Gyan. But then again, some countries have regions/nations within that produce similar attributes (style/physique)...
I am not disagreeing with any of these points. My point simply is that we don't have to be all or nothing. And its not a catastrophe if we continue on our path. Just very very non-optimal. At this point, we have a crisis just to make sure that we qualify for Brazil. Fixing the KFA, changing the k-league structure, changing youth programs in Korea... that's not going to be fixed in time to have ANY impact on '14 except perhaps in choosing the proper NT manager. Its not that one should not fix the KFA... its just a whole other problem with different scope and timeframe.
I'd be shocked if he stays. I really feel like he was forced into this as an emergency short term solution by Hyundai.
But it could. We could have some decent prospects who are 16, 17, 18, 19 year olds that emerge in key positions w/n the next two years. I don't want their development stunted/stifled by the incompetence of the KFA.
If he stays, that would be a lot of poo on the KFA's face and would mean that things are even more f'ed up than they are already.
I have a hard time thinking that the KFA will change so much in the next 2 years. Of course I'd like things to be fixed but I am skeptical of so much change in such a short time. I mean, the issues in the drafting system have been known forever no?
I think the KFA (currently constructed) wants him to stay. But I have a feeling that he wants out immediately following the Kuwait match. I really feel that CKH views this as a Cincinnatus task of sorts.
I'll have to go by what y'all say but it does seem like his comments have essentially given not only the KFA the gun, but forcing their hand too.
There's no doubt we would be a better team if somehow crazy luck was on our side (a lot like Cote d'Ivoire) and players that are as gifted as Drogba and Yaya Toure fell on our lap, but 1) we can't rely on the possibility of getting lucky to develop and 2) even getting lucky like Cote d'Ivoire wouldn't make us a great team without a system that can churn out quality players on a consistent basis. Yes, but it's still very few players who aren't nearly as good as the likes of Drogba and Essien. I don't think I've ever denied this, but my point is that without a proper infrastructure and well run management, it's impossible to become a top footballing country that can contend for major tournaments. This is a fact and there has never been an exception to this rule. I do, but relying on this trend would only make us a poorer version of Africa. Hence, we would never be able to compete with the best in the world even 30, 50 or 100 years from now. I brought up how Kagawa was developed, because it shows that Japan is on the right track unlike us. All of our star players have become who they are today because luckily for them, they've been able to buck the system. Without the right infrastructure, the chances of producing a world class player is extremely slim barring some crazy luck. I've already conceded that building a system can't be done overnight, but it's still imperative to build one if we're to develop further from here on out. Otherwise this is as good as we'll get and we'll continue to stagnate. We don't have the natural resources like the Africans and don't have the money like Japan or even the US. We need brains in the KFA that can right the ship. If we continue to let these uneducated thugs run the management while leaving the likes of Hong Myung-bo, Hwang Sun-hong, Huh Jung-moo and Cha Bum-keun (all of whom are smart and have shown that they know a thing or two about football management) in the dust, our football will suffer in the long run.
The thing is, I don't think for a second that our national team in its current state is in crisis. We'll be fine. Every year or two after the World Cup, we have gone through a coaching change for the same reason. LOL.
I think this only applies to those who have no problem with us being behind Europe and South America (and possibly Japan) even 50~100 years from now.
its amazing to me that we've been spinning our wheels essentially since the 80s and probably longer (sharp inflection point in 2002 and very shortly thereafter then back to the same). it just tells you how entrenched the corruption probably is.
I do not disagree with any of this. I think I've had few if anything positive to say about the KFA ever in this forum, and certainly I'd love for us to have a quality FA. All I'm saying is that we're not alone in having a bad one; that I expect little change in the immediate future; and again that its not highly relevant to WCQ even if it is crucial for us to move up to the next level. Indeed. Lol. Which is why I wanted to circle the topic back to truly identifying what CKR has done wrong to get us to this situation. I still think we have one of the top teams in asia with fixable problems in terms of WCQ. It seems some people here have decided that it was an error in "Euro-bias", which I do not see strong evidence for. Some have argued for more veteran leadership, where I do not know who are viable candidates. Older yes, but leaders?
Catastrophe is a pretty strong word and 50-100 years is a long time. Sometimes change will be gradual. Which is why I have such low expectations of significant change right now. But I'm not sure we're back to the same just yet.
If we're to discuss strictly on what ultimately failed Jo Gwang-rae, it was his horrible man management skills. Granted, everything seems to indicate to me that his regulars (including Park Ju-young, Ki Sung-yong and Cha Du-ri) adored him and enjoyed playing for him, but the 2/3 of the team absolutely detested him. This will change under Choi Gang-hee. That much I'm certain. He's a renowned player-friendly coach.
I hope CKH has a) a more realistic expectation of what type of football we can play; and b) a better understanding of how to position his players on the pitch and basic concepts like width.