The Official Fire Jill Ellis Thread

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by McSkillz, Aug 12, 2016.

  1. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Huh? Pugh being on the team had little to do with Rapinoe's injury, as exhibited by the fact they both made the roster.

    Pugh played well enough no coach could keep her off the team.
     
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  2. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #52 kernel_thai, Aug 16, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
    Pugh had zero caps and zero camps before Rapinoe got hurt. Personally I doubt we would have seen a hint of Pugh until after the U20 WC. That's pretty much been the tradition with young players. Why bring in Pugh to sit on the bench behind Heath, Rapinoe and Dunn? Why put a 17 yo under that type of pressure when she wasnt needed? So no, if Rapinoe doesnt get hurt we dont get Pugh. Now this isnt saying Pugh didnt deserve to be there because she won her spot and possibly still wins a spot if Raponoe is in the mix. This is saying she doesnt get the chance. I could say the same thing about Long. If Brian doesnt have hamstring issues in April followed by Lloyd getting injured, Long likely doesnt get the chance to make the OG roster either.
     
  3. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    If u believe Jill Ellis deserves to be the coach that builds the 2019 teams that's all u need to say. Ur entitled to that. U dont need to dissect my logic. Ive been against Ellis since that dark day in May of 2014 and Ive been pretty up front that the main reason was she didnt deserve it. It's been two years and I still dont think she deserves it.

    But hey, Id love to hear he other side. Why do u think Ellis is the answer going forward? To be honest she has somehow even lost ground with me. After WC I complimented her on her handling of the veterans on the team in a difficult situation. This time she doesnt even get that. Is Hope Solo OK with the US trying to develop other GKs behind her or does that threaten to put her off her game. Can Carli Lloyd fit herself into an offense not designed around her without disappearing completely? Can Megan Rapinoe accept reality?
     
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  4. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    What in the world has "deserving it" got to do with anything? Did someone give you a "C" that you thought should have been a "B" once or something?

    A coaching hire should be made not on the basis of what the coach has done, but on the basis of what they are about to do... a search committee is literally in the business of predicting the future.
     
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  5. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #55 cpthomas, Aug 17, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
    I'm not sure what I think about whether Ellis should continue. She hasn't been head coach for very long, so it's hard for me to reach a conclusion. And, I don't know who we'd get instead. I'm more concerned about April Heinrichs and about Jurgen Klinnsman's influence on what's happening with the development of women's soccer in the US.

    But, I'd much prefer it if those who are against Ellis no matter what simply say so and don't keep trying to muster poor arguments on the topic. It seems to me that your opposition to Ellis has nothing to do with logic, you simply have a dislike for her no matter what. Why not simply say so, rather than saying she's bad because she changed her mind and concluded that a player is good (Dunn) that you think is good too?

    Remember, when Ellis came on board I thought it was a disaster. This was based on her time, and what I had seen of her, at UCLA. But, I've been paying attention to results, and her team did win the WWC. Now, her team got knocked out in the quarters of the Olympics. I'm an analytical kind of guy, and it's not in my makeup to say she gets no credit for the WWC win and all the blame for the Olys loss.

    So, what you're hearing from me as "the other side" simply is that I don't see a rational basis yet for confidently making a decision.

    I'll also add that I don't think Ellis was the reason for the Oly loss, at least not entirely. The US shooting was horrible, including Lloyd, Pugh, and Press, as well as Morgan's horrible PK. I don't think this was Ellis's fault. In addition, Lloyd insisted on taking some free kicks from good positions, which she muffed, when she should have let Heath take them. I lay a good part of the loss on the players. On the other hand, Ellis may be responsible in part, if she was behind our sending so many players forward and leaving the defense exposed. That could be a legitimate criticism of her.
     
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  6. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    1. I too thought several of those kicks maybe should have been Heath's. But do we know Lloyd "insisted?" Has there been some interview or something giving us a report on their conversations? It is awfully easy to make that assumption, because it is awfully easy to capsulize Lloyd as a player who never met a shot she didn't like... but it shouldn't count as something we know until there's something more than our impression. We weren't in the conversations involved.

    2. OTOH it is pretty clear at this point that the "sending so many players forward" is how Jill sees this system as working. I don't see what happened so much as "too many players forward" as that the two who should be staying home at the given moment got sucked up and out just a little bit too much-- literally a half step or less. But that's a chance Ellis seems to me to have absolutely chosen to take, and a share of that responsibility does seem to me to be hers. This is very much a "best defense is a good offense" system at this point.
     
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  7. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I agree that it would be better if there was a full cycle to use for evaluation but at this point they need to decide to keep her for the next cycle or give he new coach a full cycle o make it his/her team. Short of a player revolt there is just nothing significant enough on he woman's calendar. I also dont believe she keeps/loses her job based on either winning WC or he poor Olympic performance. The matches r too close for that. In WC if they dont find the single goal against China and that goes to PK they may be out in the quarters. If they find that single goal against Sweden they r likely playing for the gold medal against Germany this weekend. I think that is way too close a margin to fire someone on. My problems with Ellis r much more general but instead of complaining about what Ellis does, Im going to say what I think this team needs in a coach.

    I think they need structure where each player has set assignments instead of the current free approach. I think they need a better and consistent approach to rosters instead of the current learn on the job approach. I think they need consistent tactics instead of constantly changing based on whatever. Mostly I think they need a coach who gets the most out of players and not hinder them.
     
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  8. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think my current stance on Ellis is that I'm pretty apathetic...neither pro nor con. When she was first hired, I was against it just because I didn't see her as the best choice but I was willing to be proven wrong. After the WWC, I thought I'd been proven wrong and was generally in Ellis' camp because even if you think that she was mostly forced into the decisions that resulted in the win, she did win and she also chose to put that staff making some of those decisions around her. She gets credit for that. And I also liked the changes in tactics on the team that I was seeing.

    Now after this QF exit, I'm okay with her staying but would be equally okay if there was someone brought in who is not only a better choice but also not part of the USSF inner circle.

    The criticism I have is not so much in her player choices. I don't think those would change so much with another coach. Well, I still disagree with the Rapinoe over HAO decision, but otherwise, I have no problem with her player choices. I do think she deserves criticism for some of her game management: her choice of subs and when to sub, her choices--well, I assume, her choices--on the KFTPM takers and the order, etc. I mean, why not sub in Krieger instead of putting Heath at RB as Krieger is a natural RB and can, or at least used to be able to take a PK as well? I also think that there is some merit in criticizing her tactics: playing players out of their natural position and seemingly choosing to play a system that emphasizes possession, but without penetration (I think part of that is choosing to play Lloyd at the 10 when she is not as adept at the final pass as others and would rather shoot, but if Lloyd is not there where do you play her?). I also think you can criticize her (and this is long-term, not tournament-specific) for not preparing back-up goalkeepers for high-level games and giving them significant minutes. There's also some criticism for the whole coaching staff in not preparing the team well enough (imo) for defending set pieces. And finally, I was disappointed in AET in the Sweden game to not really see that USA mentality; I don't know if that's on the coach or the captains or if we were just exhausted from Manaus or if its about really missing a vocal leader like Wambach, but I just didn't see a player "rallying the troops" who had fire in their eyes. By the time we started KFTPM, we looked defeated already, imo.

    However, even for all those reasons, I don't know if Ellis needs to be fired. The players like and respect her, at least from an outsider's perspective. She has put a good coaching staff around her. I mostly like the changes I've seen in the US style of play (although I have some quibbles there), and I think our loss to Sweden was not so much about a complete breakdown in the USWNT as being unlucky and players' inability to finish.
     
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  9. olelaliga

    olelaliga Member

    Aug 31, 2009
    As, I am sure is evident in my posts, I am greatly interested in youth development. There was a statement made by CPthomas:

    "I'm more concerned about April Heinrichs and about Jurgen Klinnsman's influence on what's happening with the development of women's soccer in the US"

    As a fulltime employee of the USSF, development coach, and the current u18 coach, Heinrichs, has a significant impact potential on the pipeline of players. That position really piqued my interest would you mind discussing that statement further? Further, is this guard keeping out the 99ers from much if any influence over women's soccer? I have always wondered why Michele Akers in particular has had little influence on women's soccer after she stopped playing. I heard an interview during the group stage of the 2015 WC where she was very critical of JE et. al. Seemed to me that politics may be keeping her out of influence.
    Thanks.
     
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  10. Calci0

    Calci0 Member

    Jun 22, 2013
    NC
    Club:
    Juventus FC
  11. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I think all these articles make the same mistake. Either they need to say fire Ellis now and why or give her another World Cup and why. What was done with Sermanni was foolishness and it will be the same if it happens with Ellis. U then end up judging ur coach on big event results without the proper time before those events to mold the team in ur image.
     
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  12. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    Tom Stone wouldn't be a bad coach.
    He is used to having inferior talent, and turning programs around.
    If he ever has top notch talent, look out.
     
  13. PacmanJr_00

    PacmanJr_00 Member

    Aug 29, 2010
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just want to look like a well coached team just once before I die.

    We rely too much on trying to overpower the other team and depend on our grit and determination without ever looking like we have a clear gameplan to execute.
     
  14. NYC ugly

    NYC ugly Member

    Aug 7, 2000
    Very near my computer
    Sermanni lost 2 games in freaking Algarve Cup and got canned. No Abigail Wambach telling Gulati what to do after the US stinking in the Olympics this time so those peacocks will continue to get fed very well. WORST TOURNAMENT RESULT EVER!
     
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  15. Cannons

    Cannons Member+

    May 16, 2005
    #65 Cannons, Aug 27, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
    While USSOCCER is busy suspending Solo, pathetic Jill Ellis remains. I am more upset with her failure than what Solo said. Why doesnt she get suspended for non performance? And where do we go from here? She obviously is clueless and is leading us nowhere.

    The whole Sermanni thing stunk and were stuck with Ellis and JK. Sunil doesnt have the nads to fix that but its easy to suspend Solo. Were doomed
     
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  16. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Germany's Sylvia Neid just resigned from their NT. We should hire her. She's more of a thinking man's coach. Instead of the 'no brainier' style of Ellis
     
  17. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    She didn't "just resign."

    She announced this as her last go round long ago. I don't think she's available for hire.
     
  18. RevsRule

    RevsRule Member+

    NE Revs, LAFC
    Jun 9, 1999
    N. Eastern, Mass
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I want the dude coaching Canada more than anybody. With little real talent, he has built a decent team. They went further than we did.

    Im not sure what I thought about Tom S. He didnt get much of a shot and it was hard to see if he would have taken us further. What we do know is that Ellis got the result she deserved in the Olympics and most likely would have got in the WC had not fate bailed her out. She had no solution for a bunker but she better get one because every 2'd rate we face will try the same thing Sweden did
     
  19. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't want Herdman. His results don't justify his antics. (Also, I think that he has lucked into some of his results -- definitely brave to make bold changes, but no guarantee that they would pan out. That won't work with USA's pool, and probably wouldn't work in Canada again.)

    As for USA solving a bunker, I fully agree. I don't know that it's entirely within Ellis's power to teach something the players don't already do full-time. I think most opponents can't do it as well as Sweden can, so it's not really anything new for us to worry about. (CONCACAF teams already do it, and they are slowly improving at holding the scores down.)
    • We could try to become more like Brasil. Their anti-bunker idea is to have everybody run very fast, and throw a fast stream of small-sided (2-3 persons max) cross-to-run or pass-to-space ideas. Their attempts-per-minute is utterly beyond ours, maybe 8.0 to our 1.5. (OTOH, their results were equally poor, because they couldn't finish. And we can't just run like Brasil.)
    • We could do more of what Germany does. They do a mix of cut-and-pass, wide cross, and long shots (esp. on rebounds and knockbacks). But I think we already do something like that, except our tempo is too slow, which makes our ideas ponderous.
    • We could just do what we do better. We were actually very close to piercing Sweden's wall several times.
    I think we all agree that our tempo was too slow, involving patty-cake in the back with not much useful motion up top, and then too many aimless longballs to start something. The idea that worked well throughout was the quick-advance after a turnover, looking immediately for the Gate 2 cutter. (But that's not really an anti-bunker idea.)

    Some things to emphasize:
    • We can't seem to pass-and-flick through a congested box top. (We came close.) Keep doing that, but practice more?
    • We had more success sending Pugh/Dunn fast down a wide side with sheer pace, then looking for cutback crosses. (We came close.) Hammer that as a new tactical emphasis? Groom a player or three to specialize in that as their role in the offense? Find somebody to do that on the left? (Heath uses craft/guile instead of sheer speed, but it's less reliable.)
    • Faster side-to-side switching? The ball must outrace the defense's shift. We were surely too slow here. Is that really a matter of Ellis (re)training NT-pool players? (Maybe it is, and WNT should spend blocks of PT on this, with fireman drills and such.)
    Bunker-busting might be tough because it's a holistic thing. You need a solo magician (Messi) or a hive-mind of 4-6 players all shifting-adjusting-probing with quick interchanges. We don't have that now. How do you teach it? Given this thread title, which other candidates have a track record of having already taught it?
     
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  20. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of the discussion about tactics has been very good.

    The idea that Ellis should be canned because the US failed to advance on PKs is not good. There are lots of arguments to be made on whether she should or should not go, but the argument she should go simply because of the Sweden game doesn't hold water. I'm a numbers and stats person. In every game a team plays, there's a potential for an upset. If a team is upset, it doesn't mean the other team is the better team over time, it means only that this was one of the upsets that inevitably can and will occur sooner or later. For those who understand the nature of Elo ratings, this is obvious. For every difference in ratings between two opponents, there is a percentage chance of an upset and, statistically speaking, over time that is the percentage of games with that rating difference that will result in upsets.

    So, people should get off the "Ellis should go, the Sweden result proves it" and get instead to a discussion with real substance. There has been some of that here, but not really that much.
     
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  21. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #71 Semblance17, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
    Few if any here appear to be arguing that Ellis deserves to be fired because of this one loss alone. A more common and reasonable argument seems to be that the Sweden game is the ultimate example of Ellis not getting away with making the type of mistakes she has made since her tenure started. Put another way, perhaps allowing her team to get knocked out in the Olympic quarterfinal in the manner it did has not been by any means Ellis's only failure as head coach, but just a very high-profile accumulation of more latent failures in development and tactics, failures that the players were previously able to power through when it mattered most.

    I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with that argument exactly. But accepting this loss as that inevitable eventual upset ("just one of those things") might be a little short-sighted. The flaws that corrupted in the team's play in the games against both Sweden and Colombia are not flaws that haven't arisen with a certain degree of regularity in the past, and regardless of whether Ellis goes or stays the team probably could use a recalibration of some variety.
     
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  22. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Herdman worries me, despite the excellent results he got at this Olympics. Iv'e read that he makes his team watch UFC fights together and has brought in George St Pierrre too teach his players how to fight martial arts! Not sure if that's the way woso should be heading?
     
  23. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Am I correct that Neid ends her German coaching career without ever having beaten the US? Wow, that's hard to believe considering quality of the program.
     
  24. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I think way too much emphasis is put on what happened at WC and OG. Truth is the WC could have gone totally wrong on one or two plays and the OG they were basically a goal against Sweden from winning the gold. Does anyone think they dont beat a Brazil team that didnt get a goal in forever. Does anyone think they dont beat Germany like they always seem to do? And I guarantee neither of those teams bunker.

    So if u set those two big events aside, the question is does Ellis make the program better or worse. Being the Treasurer of the I Hate Ellis Club, I obviously think she has a negative effect on the program. If she does then this is the time to move on before things get worse.

    1. Is Ellis a good leader?
    2. Does she handle the players well?
    3. Is she a good tactician?
    4. Is she a good bench coach?
    5. Is she developing young players to keep the program on top?

    These r the questions that need to be answered more than which big tournament she did or didnt win.
     
  25. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    You pretty much nailed it with this entire analysis. :thumbsup:

    Although don't sell Brazil short.
    They tend to play better against the USA in major tournaments, than they do against other Top 10 FIFA teams.
    Marta is older now, and less effective. So they certainly shouldn't be as intimidating.
     

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