The never-ending Top Red vs. the rest of the United supporting world debate.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Drae said: ↑

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the majority of the debt is allocated to the holding company, and not on the books of the club itself.

Sure the debt on the holding company is probably secured by the assets owned by the club and possibly other Glazer assets. But the debt is not actually transferred to the club.

As such, any sale of the club would not see the new owner take on the entirety of the Glazer debt, just the debt which is on the club books, which is relatively small, around 250 million pounds, or roughly 25% of total equity. Which is a lower than average debt ratio for a football club.

The debt owed by the holding company (700 million or so) would be cleared by the rest of the sale price, plus any profit from the deal would flow back to the Glazers.

The only reason this would change is if the Glazers transfer a large part of the debt from the holding company to the club itself, at which time Glazer debt becomes club debt. This is of course something we have all been worried about since the take over. Although, it has to be said, that since the take over they have not transferred that much debt to the club itself.

Regardless, we are not in the strong position we were prior to the takeover, and probably are not able to put as much money into the squad as we otherwise might have. But we have not suffered financial Armageddon either.

The 2005 take over deal was done in a very different financial climate to now, although the finance markets, particularly the US ones only got more aggressive later on this decade with predictable results.

The other factor is that the at 2005, the deal only represented about 10% of the total Glazer net worth, which was probably another factor in how they got the finance at the time. Unfortunately, since then, like everyone else, their net worth has dropped quite a bit, leaving much less room for error.

If they are unable to meet payments, I think under the refinanced deal, ownership will go to the hedge funds who are currently providing the financing.

Much more likely would be that they sell, either to avoid the above, or because they get an offer where they can make a decent profit.
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This is why so many of us were against the Yanks coming in and buying the club. Prior to the sale we were in excellent shape.

I am worried how the proposed UEFA rules regarding debt will affect this club.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

This is why so many of us were against the Yanks coming in and buying the club. Prior to the sale we were in excellent shape.

I am worried how the proposed UEFA rules regarding debt will affect this club.
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Do you know how xenophobic you sound when you say the "Yanks"?

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Amdrag said: ↑

Do you know how xenophobic you sound when you say the "Yanks"?
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Sorry, I was not happy when the Glazers took over and would rather the club stayed in the hands of British/irish owners.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

Sorry, I was not happy when the Glazers took over and would rather the club stayed in the hands of British/irish owners.
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Because British/Irish owners never, ever run clubs into the ground...

Yeah, xenophobic.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Amdrag said: ↑

Because British/Irish owners never, ever run clubs into the ground...

Yeah, xenophobic.
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No, unlike you I am not from the U.S and having grown up in Greater Manchester I wanted the club to stay in local hands. I am opposed to any foreign ownership and was not happy when the Glazers bought our club.

This is not Xenophobic, I am a patriot.

LimeTree · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

No, unlike you I am not from the U.S and having grown up in Greater Manchester I wanted the club to stay in local hands. I am opposed to any foreign ownership and was not happy when the Glazers bought our club.

This is not Xenophobic, I am a patriot.
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Annnnd here we go.

Annnnnnnd semantics.

He's not saing you are xenophobic, but you sure as shit sound it. The second part I bolded only enforces that.

Bronaldo · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

This "argument" is almost as bad as the thing about Wolves playing their back ups.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

No, unlike you I am not from the U.S and having grown up in Greater Manchester I wanted the club to stay in local hands. I am opposed to any foreign ownership and was not happy when the Glazers bought our club.

This is not Xenophobic, I am a patriot.
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Yes because who owns a football club has anything to do with patriotism.

This is elitism at the best and it reeks of xenophobic overtones.

LimeTree said: ↑

Annnnd here we go.

Annnnnnnd semantics.

He's not saing you are xenophobic, but you sure as shit sound it. The second part I bolded only enforces that.
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Exactly.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

LimeTree said: ↑

Annnnd here we go.

Annnnnnnd semantics.

He's not saing you are xenophobic, but you sure as shit sound it. The second part I bolded only enforces that.
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Please explain how that makes me Xenophobic, I am a local lad and want to see local players/owners involved in the club.

Remeber this is not some franchise that gets moved to another city should it not be run well. My family for generations has supported this club and it means everything to us. I have travelled all over the world supporting them and will continue to do so.

I do not hate foreigners but wanted to have owners that understand the club, the game and what it means to the community. The prior onwership understood this. I also did not want to see the club with so much debt.

I am sorry if that bothers you....but to suggest I am being Xenophobic is silly.

LimeTree · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Bronaldo's right. This is a stupid arguement. But I just want to clarify, no one is saying you are xenophobic. It's just that these "I'm from Manchester, etc." comments (which aren't a first...) and the use of the term "Yank" (pejorative to some) come off that way. Perhaps xenophobic isn't the right term. More like haughty.

However it raises an interesting question. While I'm all for local players, would you, or anyone here, really want to sacrifice an impactful ($$$) foreign ownership just to have local hands guiding the club? While the Glazers are obviously not the ideal situation, would a local ownership really be preferable to a foreign ownership - especially if it meant our weakness in the transfer market?

For me: no way.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

LimeTree said: ↑

Bronaldo's right. This is a stupid arguement. But I just want to clarify, no one is saying you are xenophobic. It's just that these "I'm from Manchester, etc." comments (which aren't a first...) and the use of the term "Yank" (pejorative to some) come off that way. Perhaps xenophobic isn't the right term. More like haughty.

However it raises an interesting question. While I'm all for local players, would you, or anyone here, really want to sacrifice an impactful ($$$) foreign ownership just to have local hands guiding the club? While the Glazers are obviously not the ideal situation, would a local ownership really be preferable to a foreign ownership - especially if it meant our weakness in the transfer market?

For me: no way.
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Being a United supporter can be tough given the amount of stick some of us get due to the amount of supporters we have that have never been to OT or are not from GM. It is stupid for us to lash out at a fellow supporter, but it does happen.

Your question is difficult and tugs on my heart strings. My problem with the Glazers is the amount of debt that came with them. If I had to have a foreign ownership than I would want to ensure it came with little or no risk to the club.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

Being a United supporter can be tough given the amount of stick some of us get due to the amount of supporters we have that have never been to OT or are not from GM. It is stupid for us to lash out at a fellow supporter, but it does happen.

Your question is difficult and tugs on my heart strings. My problem with the Glazers is the amount of debt that came with them. If I had to have a foreign ownership than I would want to ensure it came with little or no risk to the club.
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Then your problem is with the Glazers not foreign ownership, not Americans. Or is it? You can't seem to make up your mind.

I find it hilarious though that anyone can complain about foreign ownership and yet see no problem with having players from Portugal, Korea, Bulgaria, France, Serbia, Brazil, Argentina, Spain and many other countries throughout the years.

Why not just play local lads? Why have a coaching staff with any foreigners?

Invincible · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

Being a United supporter can be tough given the amount of stick some of us get due to the amount of supporters we have that have never been to OT or are not from GM.
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Who cares? Those same fans put millions upon millions in the club's coffers so you should be pretty glad that your club has them.

superdolphin · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Why does it make me less of a fan, less of a supporter of the club because I haven't been to old trafford? Unfortunately not everyone can afford the trip nor does everyone have the time. I think it's a bit low of you to even insinuate that not going to old trafford is a reason to not be taken seriously as a true supporter.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

superdolphin said: ↑

Why does it make me less of a fan, less of a supporter of the club because I haven't been to old trafford? Unfortunately not everyone can afford the trip nor does everyone have the time. I think it's a bit low of you to even insinuate that not going to old trafford is a reason to not be taken seriously as a true supporter.
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I did not indicate you are less of a fan. Growing up the City, Borough, Bolton, etc would take the piss from us. The majority of my school were blues and it was constantly being brought up that after a United game the majority of supporters were heading back to London or another country.

Unless you have been brought up in an enviroment like that then you will not understand.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Amdrag said: ↑

Then your problem is with the Glazers not foreign ownership, not Americans. Or is it? You can't seem to make up your mind.

I find it hilarious though that anyone can complain about foreign ownership and yet see no problem with having players from Portugal, Korea, Bulgaria, France, Serbia, Brazil, Argentina, Spain and many other countries throughout the years.

Why not just play local lads? Why have a coaching staff with any foreigners?
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Ownership is very different than having some foreign players in our squad. United has always been big on making sure that backbone of our squad is british/Irish mixed with some foreign flair. The majority of our coaching staff is also British/Irish.

We all love it when local lads make the squad.

Do you support your local MLS side? Do you not want to ensure that the backbone of your squad is American? Does that not help your national team?

A club is part of the community, I attended United training camps and seminars, United raised funds for local schools and allowed us acess to facilites. I am not sure why it bothers you that a British guys wants to make sure that his local club he loves and has supported from birth has close ties to his community???

If you choose to support United that is great, it brings funds to the club and helps us. I would also suggest you support your local side and ensure they are succesful as well.

Invincible · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

superdolphin said: ↑

Why does it make me less of a fan, less of a supporter of the club because I haven't been to old trafford? Unfortunately not everyone can afford the trip nor does everyone have the time. I think it's a bit low of you to even insinuate that not going to old trafford is a reason to not be taken seriously as a true supporter.
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It's all delusion. A psychological trick. For some reason, because their family and friends told them and each other over and over again over a long period of time that the club belonged to them, they actually believe that the club belongs to them. In actuality, the only people who have the right to behave in such a manner are the people that own the business, the stadium and the land it's sitting on. Not a bunch of peasants who've somehow convinced themselves through repetition that they own the club because they happen to live in the same area that the club is located in.

You can't claim a worldwide brand as something that belongs to you personally and vigorously defend that position without looking like a fool. Does a Bavarian lover of BMW cars go around trying to make other BMW lovers around the world feel inadequate because they aren't from Bavaria and have never been to BMW's headquarters?

Holy__Joe · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

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busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Invincible said: ↑

It's all delusion. A psychological trick. For some reason, because their family and friends told them and each other over and over again over a long period of time that the club belonged to them, they actually believe that the club belongs to them. In actuality, the only people who have the right to behave in such a manner are the people that own the business, the stadium and the land it's sitting on. Not a bunch of peasants who've somehow convinced themselves through repetition that they own the club because they happen to live in the same area that the club is located in.

You can't claim a worldwide brand as something that belongs to you personally and vigorously defend that position without looking like a fool. Does a Bavarian lover of BMW cars go around trying to make other BMW lovers around the world feel inadequate because they aren't from Bavaria and have never been to BMW's headquarters?
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What made you become a United supporter? When did you become a United supporter? For many,specifically those who grew up in the U/K and Ireland it was not a choice. Our great grandfathers were supporters and we followed in the family tradition.

I guess for some, like you given your comparasion to a BMW it is simply a brand. For many it goes deeper than that.

I hope you show the same passion for your local side.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

Ownership is very different than having some foreign players in our squad. United has always been big on making sure that backbone of our squad is british/Irish mixed with some foreign flair. The majority of our coaching staff is also British/Irish.

We all love it when local lads make the squad.

Do you support your local MLS side? Do you not want to ensure that the backbone of your squad is American? Does that not help your national team?

A club is part of the community, I attended United training camps and seminars, United raised funds for local schools and allowed us acess to facilites. I am not sure why it bothers you that a British guys wants to make sure that his local club he loves and has supported from birth has close ties to his community???

If you choose to support United that is great, it brings funds to the club and helps us. I would also suggest you support your local side and ensure they are succesful as well.
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You blow my mind. "Us"?

Good job on the stereo type of "flair" of players not born in England by the way.

Just because you want to include Scotland, Wales and Ireland as a part of England, does not make them any less foreign then a player from Portugal, or Canada or China. You can use the phrase British, but they don't play for the English national team. Born in a different country. They are foreign and even if you like to warp reality to fit your mind doesn't make it any less real. Arguably the people with the greatest impact on United have been foreign.

Two of the Holy Trinity foreign. Sir Matt Busby foreign. Cantona foreign. Roy Keane foreign. Giggs foreign. CR7 foreign. Sir Alex Ferguson foreign.

So stop with your attempt at righteous indignation. It not only rings false, but makes you look more then a bit of a xenophobe.

Also why would you assume I have a local MLS team? They are what 16 in a country that is massive. Plenty of people not even in the same state as a team.

Invincible · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

What made you become a United supporter? When did you become a United supporter? For many,specifically those who grew up in the U/K and Ireland it was not a choice. Our great grandfathers were supporters and we followed in the family tradition.

I guess for some, like you given your comparasion to a BMW it is simply a brand. For many it goes deeper than that.

I hope you show the same passion for your local side.
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I became a United(and football) supporter when Dwight Yorke, my fellow countryman joined. I simply started following United to see how he was doing, then I fell in love with United and football in general(I used to hate it).

United isn't merely a brand to me, the same way a BMW isn't merely a brand to a BMW enthusiast. They love everything about their cars: The way it sounds, the way it runs, that trademark BMW 'style'. Same with me and same with United. I associate myself with the club because I've grown attached to everything it is and everything it stands for.

I brought up the brand thing simply to defend my point that you can't claim something that's available to everyone, for yourself and then try to shut everyone else out or make everyone else feel less than you. Well you can, but it isn't right.

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

What made you become a United supporter? When did you become a United supporter? For many,specifically those who grew up in the U/K and Ireland it was not a choice. Our great grandfathers were supporters and we followed in the family tradition.

I guess for some, like you given your comparasion to a BMW it is simply a brand. For many it goes deeper than that.

I hope you show the same passion for your local side.
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Uh, that is a choice. A choice to follow family tradition. You could of chosen to not be a fan of football at all. How is United a local side for someone who lives in Ireland or Scotland? Anyone who lives in any city not named Trafford?

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Invincible said: ↑

I became a United(and football) supporter when Dwight Yorke, my fellow countryman joined. I simply started following United to see how he was doing, then I fell in love with United and football in general(I used to hate it).

United isn't merely a brand to me, the same way a BMW isn't merely a brand to a BMW enthusiast. They love everything about their cars: The way it sounds, the way it runs, that trademark BMW 'style'. Same with me and same with United. I associate myself with the club because I've grown attached to everything it is and everything it stands for.

I brought up the brand thing simply to defend my point that you can't claim something that's available to everyone, for yourself and then try to shut everyone else out or make everyone else feel less than you. Well you can, but it isn't right.
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I just fell for Vince.

busbyboy74 · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

Amdrag said: ↑

Uh, that is a choice. A choice to follow family tradition. You could of chosen to not be a fan of football at all. How is United a local side for someone who lives in Ireland or Scotland? Anyone who lives in any city not named Trafford?
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I would have to find the City of Trafford first.

United has close roots to the Irish Catholics, and Scotish Catholics. Do you support your local MLS side?

Amdrag · Dec 23, 2009

Re: Dust off your credit cards - The January window transfer thread

busbyboy74 said: ↑

I would have to find the City of Trafford first.

United has close roots to the Irish Catholics, and Scotish Catholics. Do you support your local MLS side?
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Meant the borough. Either way, it is a local area where the club actually plays its Home games. Only those who were born there can claim "local" status if we are going to be assholes about.

Now your bringing up religion. So as long as one is Irish/Scottish Catholic they can support United and live outside of England. Okay...